1844 and the Future of Adventism

Spectrum Website
1

This is the third article in a (somewhat) annual column I write on October 22, 1844. You can read the previous ones here and here.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2018/1844-and-future-adventism
2 Likes
2

Not true in the least

2 Likes
3

It fails the basic test of hermeneutics only of which arbitrarily demands natural explanations to
a priorily ruling out predictive prophecy as mythical. THIS, I fear is the “basic test of biblical hermeneutics” that hides behind various popular interprations

3 Likes
4

This Greek “little horn” rises from the “four [Greek] horns” which, in turn, arise from the “great horn,” i.e., “Alexander, the Great” (Daniel 8:9, 23–24);
The “little horn” rises in the time of the “posterity” of one of the “four horns,” i.e., one of Alexander’s four generals (cf. acharith, Daniel 8:23; cf. 11:3)
[/quote]

“the great horn was broken; (Alexander) and for it came up four (masculine) notable ones Alexander’s generals) toward the four winds (Female/neuter) of heaven.”

[Dan 8:9 ] “out of one of them (Female/neuter) came forth a little horn,” NOT OUT of One of the Four Horns (masculine) but out of four Winds (Feminine) or “directions

“toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.. In other words, a power from the WEST. Obviously “Rome.”

4 Likes
5

i’ve heard this gender argument that links the little horn in v.9 to the four winds, instead of the four horns, in v.8 before
i’m not sure i’ve heard andre’s side refute it well


6

Anyone interested in the full argument should download the full PDF linked in the blog and below. Trying to refute the summary alone is bound to repeat arguments that have already been addressed.

1 Like
7

Thank you AndrĂ© for exploring such a difficult theme. It’s always (good) food for thought. I can already foresee how it is going to motivate a deep and healthy conversation here.

4 Likes
8

You are quite right there. They cannot be unanimous as a number of Adventist scholars don’t agree. Their pay checks depend on it.

3 Likes
9

Don’t you luv the smell of Economic power in the morning
no whips, no instruments of torture or burning in our church. We use economic power to achieve ensure church staff and clergy are behind every policy we make!

2 Likes
10

Not André’s pay checks. He can be as honest as he needs, he does not have to bow down to any pay check from the Denomination.
@areis74 @David1

3 Likes
11

Andre Reis raises a good point, when he asks" Why are we failing to convince many bright minds in our midst of the strength of our prophetic interpretations? " Let’s consider the three basic SDA interpretations regarding the little horn of Daniel 8:9-11 below, in the light of George Knight’s statement: “If Adventism’s apocalyptic big picture isn’t valid, the most sensible thing is to shut up shop, go home and do something meaningful with our lives” ( The Apocalyptic Vision and the Neutering of Adventism , 54).

1844-1980. SDA’s generally accepted Daniel 8:9-11 applied to Rome, the crucifixion of Christ, and the destruction of the earthly temple. The identity of the daily remained for a better day for a final answer.

1980-2002. SDA’s generally accepted Dan. 8:9 applied to pagan Rome, while verse 11, or verses 10 and 11, applied to papal Rome. The daily of Daniel is applied to Christ’s ministry.

2002-2018. The current SDA church position is that Daniel 8:9-11 applies to the Papacy only. Consequently it is considered a Papal host has not only overthrown the heavenly host, this host also controls the ministry in the MHP of the heavenly temple. The 2,300 days apply to the persecuting rule of the Papacy.

As neither the President nor anyone else is prepared to confirm which of the above interpretations, applies to FB 24 today; is it possible that none of our scholars evangelists or pastors are aware that none of these positions fulfil a strict application of the generally accepted principles of interpreting prophecy below. Or are they, (with a few exceptions), simply " slaves of the organization that employs them. " Henry Newman?

History confirms fulfilled prophecy.

When the plain Word of Scripture makes sense we should seek no other explanation.

When a latter Prophet provides an explanation of an earlier prophecy, we should accept the explanation provided by the latter Prophet.

Consequently, unless and until, there is general agreement regarding the principles of prophetic interpretation, and these principles are strictly applied, it appears men will continue to present their fanciful theories, irrespective of counsels such as the following.

When the books of Daniel and Revelation are better understood, believers will have an entirely different religious experience. — .FLB 346

Our people need to understand the oracles of God; they need to have a systematic knowledge of the principles of revealed truth, which will fit them for what is coming upon the earth and prevent them from being carried about by every wind of doctrine.–5T 273 (1885). {LDE 66.5}

Put away all fanciful theories. Let the truth stand out in its original power. {21MR 177.4}

His church is to be taught. Enfeebled and defective though it is, it is the object of His supreme regard. {21MR 177.5}

My brethren, the Lord will help you mightily if you will be guided by Him, and I am confident that you will be. May He help you now, just now, to receive and believe the testimony that comes to you.–Letter 279, 1904.

So What

The Seventh-day Adventist Church was founded largely, if not entirely, in accordance with the prophecies of Daniel 8:9-14 and the associated messages of Revelation 13 and 14. Messages that must go to the whole world " again " when the deadly wound, inflicted in 1798, is fully healed, cf. Rev. 13:3, 12. “ All the world marvelled and followed the beast ,” who " opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven ." vs.6, when he is "allowed" to " make war with the saints and overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations ." vs. 7; Dan. 7:21. John is very clear verse 7 of verses 6-10 applies to all " the saints ," (The SDA saints, as well as the saints in the fallen churches).

What is more important : Power and control associated with the endless discussion regarding the Ordination of Women, a non Fundamental Belief that has caused division in the church for decades. Or to be earnestly seeking to fortify the mind with the Fundamental truths of the Bible in order to stand through the last great conflict, and not be carried away by every wind of doctrine that is blowing in the church today? Time is short, but the Lord, in His mercy, continues to hold back the winds of strife in order that His people may heed His warnings and counsels to be ready to "prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings." Rev. 10:11.

When this gospel of the kingdom has been preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations a second time; then shall the end come. cf. Matthew 24:14.

The word of God was carried to the people; and all classes, high and low, rich and poor, learned and ignorant, eagerly studied it for themselves. Are we, in this last conflict of the great controversy, as faithful to our trust as the early Reformers were to theirs? cf. PK 625-627.

2 Likes
12

“And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.” Daniel 8:9

Basic reading of this one verse excludes that it could ever be Antitochus IV Epiphanes(AE). He was not an exceedingly great king, which the same words are attributed to the Great horn just a few verses earlier which we know(maybe you don’t) was Alexander the Great. There is no comparison between the two at all and to say at this time in history with all that is know is beyond comprehension.

AE was one of 30 selucid kings and to say he was even greater than the founder of that name line is ludicrous.

'Satan will always cooperate with those who are willing to betray sacred trusts". RC201.

4 Likes
13

A powerful statement, Let us be sure on the fundamentals. we are sinners all. Christ gift is saving Grace for all who will accept it. He shall return in Glory because what He has done not because what 144,000 have accomplished. Adventism insists on keeping the fraud of 1844 alive with their wish lists.

4 Likes
14

It’s not unanimous but most do say it’s AE IV of contemporary times now, outside the remnant who are the only ones still applying historist interpretation of bible prophecy, excluding this outlier in the church or whatever he claims he is.

15

If Daniel had written only chapter 8, the author might have a point. But being familiar with chapter 2 and 7, his arguments don’t hold.

All three chapters run parallel placing the activity of the little horn clearly into the time of the “fourth” kingdom, which has followed Greece and lasts until the end of time. To identify this fourth kingdom with the Seleucids is not convincing. Greece is brass and Seleucia iron? Greece a leopard and Seleucia a dragon monster? This can neither be proven historically nor biblically.

Christ Himself interpreted the fourth kingdom as still being future (Rome) when he spoke about “the abomination that makes desolate”, and this term clearly stems from visions where the angel elaborated on the small horn power of Daniel 8. So it cannot be Antiochus IV. Epiphanes.

4 Likes
16

Praise the Lord, someone with theological degrees fully understands what I , a novice layman, discovered years ago. Dr. Andre asks, “Why are we failing to convince many bright minds in our midst of the strength of our prophetic interpretations?” Because we have created a MONSTER! We created colleges and universities. We created young people to think for themselves instead of being spoon fed by a bunch of previously spoon fed preachers and “teachers”.
As far as an Investigative Judgment is concerned. YES! The entire Bible is about an IV. But you and I are not the ones being investigated. God is on trial and always has been since the war in heaven. We claim 1844 started our message. I believe it did. Verse 7 says, “Fear (respect, honor, worship, God
” but we quickly go to the third angel’s message because we use it to scare people into joining the ‘remnant’ church. Ellen White was not inerrant in theology, but her ‘messages’ have all proven true.

17

@DarrelL

so, what you guys are saying is that within this symbolic depiction of empires - of goats and horns - suddenly a horn comes wafting on the west wind and divides itself toward the four directions (north, south east and west - which is where it already came from). It makes not sense contextually.

The overthrow of Antiochus was important enough to the Hebrews that they celebrate his demise to this day by a yearly celebration of Hanukkah.

All that aside, what you are also saying is that the Adventist faith is based on an ambiguous - at best- interpretation of where the little horn came from. So basically we are asked to make a decision that impacts our whole religious life on where the little horn came from - "CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY, WHICH IS IT -THE WIND, OR OUT OF THE HORNS. How totally superfluous that is.

The most important question the would-be Christian is to settle in his mind, is not “Who do you say that I am?” but “where, do you say, the little horn came from”.

Ridiculous!

8 Likes
18

“The overthrow of Antiochus was important enough to the Hebrews that they celebrate his demise to this day by a yearly celebration of Hanukkah.”

Most certaintly. Yes to the Judeans he left an indelible imprint for ever to be remembered.

3 Likes
19

Really? That’s a hard one to swallow.

3 Likes
20

EGW certainly predicted several things. I wonder if you can come up with some of them (predictions or prophecies) that were actually fulfilled. Any?

1 Like