1844 and the Future of Adventism

(André Reis) #251

Extra-biblical? Hanukkah, the Feast of Lights, Feast of Dedication or ἐγκαίνια was celebrated by Jesus:

“John 10:22–23 (NRSV): At that time the festival of the Dedication took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the portico of Solomon.”

It celebrates the dedication of the Temple after the desecrations of Antiochus IV.

(George Davidovich) #252

Wrong choice of words, could have said non-Mosaic

(Steve Mga) #253

The amount of Olive Oil for the lamps were in VERY SHORT SUPPLY. And did not have
enough to last the whole feast.
THROUGH A MIRACLE that little bit of oil lasted the whole time. So the Jews today
celebrate and remember this MIRACLE with the lamp lighting.

(Brad(Luna)) #254

Daniel was likely written during the time of the Persian Empire which was way before Greece so yes it was prophecy


We are completely wrong on history. We put square pegs in round holes. We look stupid to people who actually know history. We ignore significant events in history, tout small ones. We ignore reality in place of fantasy that fits a false narrative. We will change. The best scriptural minds had Jesus wrong. Now we tout our own religious leaders, and follow them blindly. We are becoming the catholic church. Brow beating those that will not swear to 28 beliefs, even though there was never 28 and those that are there now have been changed… Adventists are truly devoid of any real knowledge of world history. From the roman empire to the founding of America. The united states can’t possibly be the horn we cite in Revelation. Still, we have people who think the US will make a comeback and rule the world…too funny. The world is atheist or other religion. And we think a law in the united states will become world wide. Sunday law? Countries already have Friday laws on the books for islam… we are just now scrambling around trying to figure out why islam is taking over the world…there is hope. Many Adventist speakers are telling the truth.

(Florin Laiu) #256

Dear André, Dear friends,
I have written already a reply to this article, and sent it to Spectrum, but I didn’t receive any answer. If anybody is interested in reading my reply, it may be downloaded from https://www.academia.edu/37753368/Reply_to_Andre_Reis.pdf

(André Reis) #258

Thank you Florin.

I’ll just say what I’ve said to you in the past and to someone else in this discussion. “One cannot successfully refute the refutation by using the same arguments that have been refuted.”

(Mikecmanea) #259

Hasn’t stopped you from trying…

(jeremy) #260

perhaps refutation is in the eye of the refuter…

i don’t agree with this kind of approach or attitude at all…adventism is different from other denominations, which depend on theologians and church fathers and mothers to make whatever case needs to be made, and which almost by definition guarantees contradiction and a lack of definitiveness…and as we see with denominations like the united church of canada, this means practically everything goes now…

instead, we are like israel, which had a direct link to god through its prophets…far from minimizing egw, we should be holding her up, front and centre, as the big indication that we are the true church of god in the world at this time…if we accept that egw is a manifestation of the spirit of prophecy, we see that she is half of why adventism is the remnant church, the other half being that we believe in keeping all ten of the commandments in the decalogue, instead of nine…obviously and hopefully we’ll see future prophets in our church…but at this point, egw is it…

i don’t see how or even why we’d want to hide or minimize this fact…

(Cfowler) #261

I think the SDA should put EGW up “front and centre” as you said. She is by far the biggest influence in the SDA church. It would be a much more honest approach for the SDA church to do this. Instead they try to hide and minimize her. Tell the truth… stop being dishonest about the Prophet/Messenger.

(Mikecmanea) #262

The only thing Adventism stands on is the fact that we are the only group that has developed a viable, fully Sola Scriptura approach.

Virtually all other denominations who claim sola scriptura actually mean scripture + tradition (early church tradition - first 400 years AD or so) by that phrase. Or, you have the fundi’s who say Sola Scriptura but provide no functional methodology.

(Mikecmanea) #263

No one is hiding, minimizing or being dishonest. EGW is fully recognized in the church for the role she played/plays which has never been epistemic/theological. It is not logically possible for a modern prophet to hold an epistemic role in theology http://bit.ly/EGWepistemology.

(jeremy) #264

you sound like you’re in agreement with desmond ford, whose whole spiel at the 1979 adventist forum at PUC was that egw is a “pastoral prophet”, and cannot be relied on in terms of doctrinal authority…

but i don’t see anywhere in the bible where a prophet isn’t the whole and final authority in everything…no-one who disregarded or minimized what a prophet had to say prospered…i think this has to be one of the biggest lessons in the OT…

(Cfowler) #265

Ellen White is not front and center when the SDA church is evangelizing. I don’t think the SDA church is honest with outsiders about her, her role in the SDA church, and the claims made by the church regarding her. I don’t think the SDA church is really honest about EGW and the history of the founding, even with the members.

People cannot make informed decisions when they don’t have all the information.

(Mikecmanea) #266

Lol. Ya. Ford and I are definitely two peas in a pod. Maybe scroll down my Facebook wall to see what I think of Ford.

If we give any epistemic role to a modern prophet we are indistinguishable from mormons

(Mikecmanea) #267

There is nothing dishonest about the SDA approach in general, though I cannot speak for every individual evangelist.

EGW had a very important role in Adventism but not in SDA theology. The reason is that theology has to precede the prophet because the prophet has to be tested by the theology.

Now people tend to be prejudiced against the idea of prophets in general and so it is prudent to bring this up later in an evangelistic series, after some degree of trust has been built. This is not dishonest. Jesus encouraged his disciples not to present Him as the Messiah publicly.

(Cfowler) #268

We won’t agree on this topic…which is fine.

Bottom line…the SDA church (in general, not just evangelists) doesn’t present EGW in an honest fashion. She is kind of hidden when talking about the SDA church with other Christians (or non-Christians). Or, when discussing with formers, they still try to minimize, or act like the church doesn’t really follow her that much anymore.

I think most members would rather not talk about her at all to outsiders.

With very good reasons!!!

(Steve Mga) #269

Regarding “SDA Theology” vs Ellen White.
Most of our “Theology” programs were developed AFTER Ellen died. That is the
major interest in Greek and Hebrew has occurred ONLY after she died.
MOST of our “28” have been written and VOTED since her death. Actually, some
since I was baptized as a kid.
I remember when Barnhouse was presented with the FIRST issue of Seventh-day
Adventists Believe. Had a copy in our house to read.
At one time our Theology teachers went to other institutions to get their Masters,
Doctorates in Biblical Studies.
NOW we GIVE our OWN Masters, Doctorates which means that the Teachers are
easier to control as to what our Theology Majors are allowed to learn in Biblical Studies.
It is NOW a CLOSED System. Our Theology Majors are encouraged NOT to learn what
Theology Majors are learning in other Theology Universities.

(Steve Mga) #270

Seventh day Adventist Apocalypse message to the World.
On the radio the other day the host was talking about the “Apocalypse Assault
With the Youth”. He talked about the Youth being SATURATED with Apocalyptic
materials – Movies, Videos, Games.

So if we have a GENERATION Saturated with END OF THE WORLD scenarios
being bombarded to them on a huge scale, It is No Wonder that no one is interesting
to listen to any RELIGIOUS GROUPS present Apocalypse Messages and BillBoards
announcing with Apocalyptic pictures.
What this means is that the SDA, at least the North American Church, is going to HAVE
to advertise and to perhaps CHANGE the formats of Evangelism.

(Florin Laiu) #271

The translation CLEANSED depends on the Vulgate and ultimately on the Septuagint, and it was prompted by the old Jewish and Christian application to Antiochus IV and to the Maccabean sanctuary cleansing. Thus it is an interpretation. The true translation of we-nitsdaq is ”will be vindicated / will be done justice to it”, a meaning directly connected to the DIVINE JUDGMENT (cf. Dan 7:10, 22).
However, God’s Providence led our pioneers to do their best in studying and interpreting the term as it was in the English version they used, as CLEANSED. They have been led by a large detour, to the same conclusion, but enriched by a theology of the sanctuary. Though it may have some flaws, it is nevertheless based on the Bible and essentially true. By every way, when we come to eschatology, we must encounter a theology of JUDGMENT. Some people will be judged according to the law of their conscience. Some people will be judged according to the Law. And finally, some people will be judged according to his knoledge of both Law and Gospel. And the Judgment according to the Gospel will prove itself for some believers the most severe (Hebrews 12:18, 22-25). The Cross of Christ – His altar – will bring condemnation to the false believers (Ap 8:5; 9:13-14; 14:18-19; 16:6-7).