“A Declaration of War” — Pastor Geoff Patterson Examines the Unity Document


#41

I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,

When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.

“Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.

Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the Lord,

They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Prov 1:26-31

Naa Naa Nee Naa Naa


(Allen Shepherd) #42

He “appointed” twelve to be apostles (Mark 3:13; Mt 10:2-4; Luke 6:14-16 and when the disciples did it in Acts 1:13). Paul also appointed elders for the churches. And Peter mentions “shepherds”; certainly there were leaders that were set apart in some fashion. So, yes, Christ did it by example, and so we are allowed to as he did. Could we do the work without leadership? It would never be as efficient. Your argument here is weak. All bodies of people have leaders. Your issue is not whether there should be leaders, which I assume you would agree with, but whether women should be allowed. I would not mind, but the majority said no, and it is not a moral issue.

How do you know that?

If God can work outside the lines, a fact on which I agree, why all the hubbub? You act as if the leadership is like some papal curia. THE CHURCH voted, not TW and his friends.

Christ is the head. He never said we had to do WO. So, this church voted not to. So how is there a problem. And being equals does not necessarily mean having the same role.

The Gospel of freedom says we can decide on this matter, and do not have to follow Western ideas and traditions on gender roles. We can do it as we see fit. We are free. So the church decided to not do WO, certainly not something that scripture admonishes to do. So, no problem, and no contrary act to God’s law or gospel.

Is it really true that you feel your thinking is the only way to really receive Christ?

Am I to understand that not doing WO is the same as Crucifying Jesus? Is that your actual position?


#43

10/27/18 - #13

Yep. There He is…with itchy finger on the Smite Button…


Credit: Gary Larson

Actually, it’s a poetic way of telling us that we’re fixin’ to reap what we have so abundantly sown for so long.

Just my take…


(DENNIS HOFER) #44

So, self-performed behavioral ‘revival and reformation’ may not be a practical choice for poor souls facing such a ‘pleasure addiction’ at the neural level ? For instance those with sexual tastes that don’t conform to a social ‘norm’ ?


(DENNIS HOFER) #45

Since you clearly know where I stand, why don’t you go ahead and answer your questions for me, for me ? That way you can twist my answers to prove your deflecting questions any way you choose, and save us both a lot of wasted effort. . . but then, you’ve already done so, haven’t you ?

Your accusations don’t require question marks. If you want to accuse me of being a sinner, you’ll have no argument from neither Heaven, nor Hell, nor myself.


(George Tichy) #46

Hi Adrian,
These issues are (important) material for a book, or at least a good booklet. But, being concise and straightforward, I would say:

  1. My understanding is that Loren (@lorenseibold, can correct me if I am wrong) was referring to some traditional doctrines that were created within Adventism that have been disputed for quite a while but still continue being part of the SDA fundamental beliefs. Like, for example, the 1844/IJ, EGW’s inerrancy, EGW’s writings at the same level of the Bible’s writings, SDAC as God’s only true Church on earth.

1.a. We no longer believe in the “Doctrine of the Shut Door,” despite the fact that it was the product of EGW’s (Camden) vision, according to her. For seven years after the disappointment, the Adventists believed in this “doctrine,” but then they abandoned it. It was really absurd, no doubt about it! (Google “Camden Vision,” and find it).

  1. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong in re-examining our doctrines. I did it (thoroughly!) ca 40 years ago during the Desmond Ford crisis (and the Glacier View fiasco) [@gford1], and concluded that there are non-biblical beliefs in the SDA set of doctrines. That’s when I decided to embrace the Sola Scripture principle. Which has been my only basis of faith since.

  2. Those who value truth will never fear a re-examination of their beliefs. Those who fear a Denomination, will never “dare” to re-examine the “truth” since, they say, it’s been refined by reliable people in Church. (Yeah…, right!..)


(George Tichy) #47
  1. In my opinion, discrimination os a classic example of moral decay. But, apparently for you it’s a virtue. I’m NOT sorry to disagree with you.

  2. Jesus choosing 12 disciples has absolutely no connection with the ordination process of pastors. What we practice today (ordination) was introduced in the Church only ca. 200 years later, by Tertullian. And you know this!


#48

10/27/18 - #16

Oh, pleasure is a good thing! The gradient for opioid receptors is much higher in the frontal cortex than in the back of the brain and other parts of the body, according to the late neuroscientist, Candace Pert, who played a key role in the discovery of the opioid receptor.

Key:

Opioid receptors respond to both exogenous and endogenous ligands:

If the brain and the other parts of the body have a receptor for something taken into the body called an exogenous ligand—it makes sense to suppose that something produced inside the body—an endogenous ligand—also fits the receptor.

.

Otherwise, why would the receptor be there? This perspective ultimately led to the identification of the brain’s own form of opiates—or, rather, one of them.

This is a chemical substance called beta-endorphin. With beta-endorphin we come to the first of the neuropeptides—which are simply peptide structures produced by nerve cells in the brain.

http://candacepert.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Advances-v8-1988-Wisdom-of-the-Receptors1.pdf

Long story short: God is a Natural High, and so is a healthy social environment, so let’s create one!

Adventism has all the talent and infrastructure in place, and God is certainly willing, if we are!

Pleasure is a great way to learn, aided by natural neuropeptides, but we can continue to learn by pain until that actually starts making sense…


(Allen Shepherd) #49

??
My “accusations” had nothing to do with whether you are a sinner or not, but merely your position on how severely you feel not doing WO is. If refraining is akin to crucifixion, etc… But you won’t answer, so I assume the answer is yes?


(Allen Shepherd) #50

Well, not exactly. I never associated my ordination with some comments by Tertullian, but rather with what Jesus did. Now maybe I have it all wrong, but I don’t think the church takes a stand with Terfullian.


(George Tichy) #51

Ah… Allen, this becomes really tiring after a while. I posted AU Professor Dr. Darius Janckiewicz’s video on this issue at least 6 times here on Spectrum. Did you ever check it out? He presented the issue to the TOSC as well. If you refuse to examine the materials, of course you will not be aware of what it is!

Here it is again, it’s up to you:

And you may like this one too:


(Allen Shepherd) #52

What do you know George, I did!!

His point at the end was that there are two kinds of ordination practiced in Christianity, functional and another, can’t remember the name, it is the one the Catholics do. I could be getting the names backwards.

Ours has nothing to do with Tertullian. Ours is to designate who is approved to speak for the church. Theirs actually confers some kind of spiritual power, as in apostolic succession, something we do not believe at all.

So, even in this lecture, our type of ordination was different than that suggested by the Big T, Tertullian. I actually thought the speech supported my view, what do you know!

But of course I can only see through my own veiled eyes…


(DENNIS HOFER) #53

Yes, it was also the ‘good news’ focus of Waggoner and Jones and Ellen – for a wonderful but too-brief period of time – that such pleasure as can be experienced by beholding Christ was a far better means of learning to be good – with good pleasure – than by beholding the merely condemning law. . . .

But, my ‘drift’ was based on the word ‘such’. ‘Such’ addictive pleasure as a Ted Wilson might supposedly have in creating controversy is (hopefully) not a traditional norm just as some ‘such’ sexual behaviors are not traditionally a ‘norm’. But given the possibility of both traditionally ‘abnormal’ pleasures to be programmed into the nervous system, itself ( like even fetal alcoholism syndrome,for instance) on top of any DNA-inherited and/or environmental influences (like the abnormally high concentrations of unnatural ‘esters’ caused by ‘polyesters’ in our polluted environment) and such, it is no more reasonable to ask ‘homosexuals’ to ‘revive and reform’ themselves without any outside, Friendly, Heavenly assistance than to ask an alcoholic or a gleeful troublemaker to do so, alone.

But, as you say, although Adventism has long been well-equipped to teach and re-teach through pleasure, still, too many perversely choose to learn through pain, and therefore have nothing truly worth teaching to others, while still insisting on their ‘revival and reformation.’

Balaam’s Jill-Ass was apparently speaking with him, but still he preferred beating up on her and inflicting pain on her to set her straight.

I’m reminded of how abused women attending the horse-whisperer, Monty Roberts’, demonstrations of ‘gentling’ un-broken horses would faint when he succeeded in taming a horse without using pain.


(DENNIS HOFER) #54

I choose not to answer under threat from an assumer. Thanks for the lesson in humility ! It will do me good outside of the SDA church, when Forest Lake Church follows through with my removal from membership in November, hopefully.


(Elmer Cupino) #55

We as a church are almost there, Allen. We have now convinced the global south that the GC in session is the voice of God on earth which is far better than just a spiritual power. If we can get the pesky TED, PUC & CUC to join the bandwagon we’ll soon surpass the Catholics.


(Harry Allen) #56

Thanks, @Cassie.

This Robert Sapolsky YouTube link just opened up a whole new conceptual world for me.

I had not heard of his research, before, and now I want to learn as much as I can about it.

HA


(EdZirkwitz) #57

Pastor Geoff.

I appreciate you taking an appropriate stand in a clear and respectful way.


#58

basically EGW calls them not christian even tho church members

I was shown the case of Stephenson and Hall of Wisconsin. I saw that while we were in Wisconsin, in June, 1854, they were convicted that the visions were of God; but they examined them and compared them with their views of the age to come, and because the visions did not agree with these, they sacrificed the visions for the Age-to-Come. And while on their journey East, last spring, they both were wrong and designing. They have stumbled over the Age-to-Come, and they are ready to take any course to injure the Review ; its friends must be awake and do what they can to save the children of God from deception. These men are uniting with a lying and corrupt people. They have had evidence of this. And while they were professing sympathy and union with my husband, they (especially Stephenson) were biting like an adder behind his back. While their words were smooth with him, they were inflaming Wisconsin against the Review and its conductors. Especially was Stephenson active in this matter. Their object has been to have the Review publish the Age-to-Come theory, or to destroy its influence. And while my husband was openhearted and unsuspecting, seeking ways to remove their jealousy, and frankly opening to them the affairs of the office, and trying to help them, they were watching for evil, and observing everything with a jealous eye. Said the angel as I beheld them: “Think ye, feeble man, that ye can stay the work of God? Feeble man, one touch of His finger can lay thee prostrate. He will suffer thee but a little while.” {1T 116.2}

I was pointed back to the rise of the advent doctrine, and even before that time, and saw that there had not been a parallel to the deception, misrepresentation, and falsehood that has been practiced by the Messenger party, or such an association of corrupt hearts under a cloak of religion. Some honest hearts have been influenced by them, concluding that they must have at least some cause for their statements, thinking them incapable of uttering so glaring falsehoods. I saw that such will have evidence of the truth of these matters. The church of God should move straight along, as though there were not such a people in the world. {1T 117.1}

I saw that decided efforts should be made to show those who are unchristian in life their wrongs, and if they do not reform, they should be separated from the precious and holy, that God may have a clean and pure people that He candelight in. Dishonor Him not by linking or uniting the clean with the unclean. {1T 117.2}

I was shown some coming from the East to the West. I saw that it should not be the object of those who leave the East for the West to get rich, but to win souls to the truth. Said the angel: “Let your works show that it is not for honor, or to lay up a treasure on earth, that ye have moved West, but to hold up and exalt the standard of truth.” I saw that those who move West should be like men waiting for their Lord. Said the angel: “Be a living example to those in the West. Let your works show that you are God’s peculiar people, and that you have a peculiar work, to give the last message of mercy to the world. Let your works show to those around you that this world is not your home.” I saw that those who have entangled themselves should break the snare of the enemy and go free. Lay not up treasures upon earth, but show by your lives that you are laying up treasure in heaven. If God has called you West, He has a work, an exalted work, for you to do. Let your faith and experience help those who have not a living experience. Let not the attraction be to this poor, dark speck of a world, but let it be upward to God, glory, and heaven. Let not the care and perplexity of farms here engross your mind, but you can safely be wrapped up in contemplating Abraham’s farm. We are heirs to that immortal inheritance. Wean your affections from earth, and dwell upon heavenly things. {1T 118.1}


#59

10/27/18 - #17

Great—I hope you’ll write about it from your perspective, Harry.

I really appreciate your take on Headship, BTW.

Over the years I’ve kept coming back to Stanford’s Philip Zimbardo and his book, The Lucifer Effect:

Bad barrels make bad apples.

Hierarchy breeds abuse and ill-health by its very structure. And, as we’ve seen with the other primates, it’s a long-standing habit, but one that does not have to prevail.

(Not that I’m recommending we feed the GC tainted veggiemeat, you understand!)

I thought this was interesting, also from Stanford:

Social status triggers genetic response in male cichlid fish

Throughout the animal kingdom, rival males routinely challenge one another for the right to reproduce. From the head-on collisions between bighorn rams to the ritualized wrestling matches of male rattlesnakes, combat is often the key to reproductive success.

But now scientists studying a species of African cichlid fish have discovered that low-ranking male cichlids can quickly become leading men without even putting up a fight. In fact, a drab subordinate male cichlid will begin physically transforming into a colorful dominant male as soon as he notices that his competition is no longer around, according to a new study conducted at Stanford University.

https://news.stanford.edu/news/2005/october19/domgene-101905.html

In my opinion, and experience, there is definitely a sexual entitlement component that goes with high-status males in a system, whether it comes out in overt abusive behavior, or the unconscious behavior of Headship males arrogating authority over one, or a harem of submissive females in a congregation.

Men get a lot of gratification from that, I have no doubt.


(Red Livingstone) #60

What fun it is to quote you out-of-context! Too bad the alphaGCmales probably have their TB vaccines up-to-date.