A Few Parallels with Last Generation Theology

the question of whether a belief in the inspiration of egw is essential for salvation may not really be relevant…i think the real question to consider is what is actually done about it…the reality is that someone may very well be receptive and obedient to truth found in egw who doesn’t know that it’s in egw…but in my view, it’s never safe to knowingly reject or ignore a prophet of god…i see no record in the bible where people prospered and were blessed who knowingly rejected or ignored the prophets and apostles they had access to…

but salvation isn’t necessarily a cut and dry proposition, at least from our standpoint…the reality is that we don’t have access to all the information that’s being reviewed and assessed in the heavenly sanctuary…i think we have to suspend judgement no matter what we think we see…this is because salvation is based on more than outward appearances…keep in mind:

“Man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.” 1Sam 16:7.

You should be a politician! No direct answer, but you can dance!! Oh Well, I will take the words of Christ over humans every time, He said ‘Believe in me’!!

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one of his apostles said: “The devils also believe, and tremble.” Js 2:19.

Well, not sure what you are trying to say, but we will just leave it that. Not an SDA belief or requirement for salvation, so maybe you have your own brand of LGT. Adios!!

Can’t reply by message so my last observation/post.

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i would say that egw has definitely helped me to connect tangibly with god, and there’s a lot that she discusses in detail that i can see is true from my own experience…but memorizing five books of the NT, word for word, and several psalms, has also helped (i’m hoping to memorize either Romans or Hebrews in the not too distant future)…i don’t see or feel a distinction between egw and the bible…i sense the same HS in each source…i connect with the same god as a result of reading or thinking about either egw or the bible…

at this point, though, i would say that my own particular journey through life is my best teacher…i always look at things through a spiritual lens…and i’m always adjusting and trying new things…what’s been really good lately is re-connecting with church people whom i literally haven’t seen in 2 or more yrs…i’m only now attending church again…this past Sabbath i bumped into the SS teacher whose class i’ve always gone to…he now has stage 4 cancer, but you wouldn’t know it, to look at him…he’s under no anxiety whatsoever about his diagnosis…he’s as radiant and cheerful as ever…he’s almost 80 now, but he’s as strong and energetic as i’ve always known him (he’s a retired optometrist, and owns an acreage just out of town, and has basically been a country bumpkin for decades and decades - he renovated his large house all by himself)…he converted to adventism in his 20’s and has been a strict vegetarian ever since…both he and his wife were so happy to see me, and i them - they’re also only now returning to church…we stood for a good while in the sanctuary after church, catching up on what’s been happening with them and me…i’ll for sure be going to SS this coming Sabbath, now that i know it’s running again…there are many bible and egw experts in that class…i always learn something new (we use the SS quarterly purely as a launching pad for discussion)…

for this coming Sabbath, we also have a potluck for our outgoing Youth Pastor, who’s very sincere, and committed (they’re expecting their 2nd child)…i’ll definitely be going to that, and will likely take with me at least a dozen Beyond Meat burgers that i’ll cook up in my secret mushroom sauce (it takes two days to cook: i use real chanterelles, porcini, morels, oysters and a few other varieties)…i’ll likely also take at least 4 large bottles of the Bolthouse Farms organic fruit juices, the kind that i know everybody likes…i’m thinking i’ll likely see tons of other people i haven’t seen in awhile…it will be just like the good old days before the pandemic…

there’s no chance that i’ll leave adventism, or my church, or give up on either egw or the bible…things are just too fulfilling and inspiring…there’s too many new, thrilling things that are constantly happening…but it is the case that the pandemic has shown me that i can go it alone if i need to…i don’t really need anything or anybody to encourage or nurture me…i have my own direct connection to god that can go the distance…but i will say it’s much better to have a supportive church, where people believe the same things you do, and where they’ve seen you grow over a life-time…

i find the exact opposite is true…to me, egw is consistent within herself…i never find contradictions…i do find different slants, depending on who or under what circumstances she’s writing, but i don’t see someone who isn’t always clear about her message…and i find egw completely compatible with the bible…there are many people who find Paul’s justification by faith only message incompatible with James’ emphasis on works (Luther wanted James excised from the bible)…but egw fuses both faith and works, Justification and Sanctification, god’s work and our works into an organic unit that makes sense to me…she doesn’t pick favourite bible writers and interpret everything through their lens…to me, this is evidence - not that any is needed - that she is inspired by the same god that inspired the bible writers, but that she had a gift for communication that they simply didn’t…i think it’s obvious that she understood more than any of the bible writers, likely because her visions, coming 2,000 yrs after the bible, represent more advanced light than was possible in the visions of the apostles…

what i find baffling is how LGT can be our seminal teaching when it so clearly contradicts egw…i would say my home church is standard SDA (we have a reputation for being the most conservative church in Canada)…we have around 1,200 members, and i don’t know a single person who subscribes to LGT…i’ve never heard an LGT sermon preached from our pulpit, or any of the churches here in Calgary, or any of our camp meetings…LGT just isn’t happening up here…

Well, from where does “our” local SDA boarding school and seminary get such ideas as fostering the "excellent holiness" as the latest advice for everybody ??

Do you think that your church will implement the Ellen White Coordinator position?

i haven’t heard any talk of it…there have been no announcements, or anything along that line…but we are by far the dominant church in Alberta…i would think it would start here before it starts anywhere else…

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you tell me…i’m not sure what the churches in Germany and Austria are linking up with…but if you have people going around talking about “excellent holiness”, no-one here is…

At first : Austria is very far away from Germany - as long as SDA concerns are involved - see also the European Valuegenesis Study. (The hostlity, inceasing after 1938 and fostered after 1945 by the politicians also shapes SDA attitudes - -)

And “our” school is doing its best to please the GC and the EGW Estate, also boarding an EGW Study Center and flooding us with new discoveries - frequently use charcoal for being “Heallthy, Happy, Holy” !, as Mrs White says - -.

Quite most or even every new attempts are in the sense of the latest US developements, see the recent SS Quarterly - - -

(And we have the trouble in our local churches with the members coping with ideas they do not quite understand - - )

Tthey are eagerly adopting the US “lifestyle” - mortarboards - not at all in use in this counrty - and in print for Bible quotations using the US practice of xx : y, instead of the European use with XX, y. in all the texts of Bible times - -

Maybe at next they will import marshmallows - -

You got me going there for a minute when you mentioned oysters, thinking you guys sure are progressive after all. But then I remembered John, (who used to post here as John 3:16 - died of covid recently), said that Ellen used to eat oysters. I checked it out, and sure enough she asked her daughter-in-law Mary, to send her a “good box of herring, some tomatoes, and a few cans of good oysters”. (MR852 2 3). Then I realized you were talking about oyster mushrooms. Otherwise I would have expected you to list a few bottles of vinegar as well. :nauseated_face: Actually, apple cider vinegar is supposed to be good for you after all.

The rest is to unbaffle you:

“When the fruit is brought forth, immediately he puteth in the sickle because the harvest is come. Christ is waiting with longing desire for the manifestation of Himself in His church. When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced inHis people, then He will come to claim His own.” (COL69 1)

Sounds like perfection to me.

The other interesting quote is about the timing of Christ’s return: “God’s judgement waits until the last end of time - until there is no longer any who will repent.” (SSP 309 3)

If God, all of a sudden, knows no one else is going to repent, He would have known that all along, doing away with these 178yrs and counting; waiting while the miseries of this globe just keep claiming victims. Not to mention billions of people who’s probation closed at the time of their death, and even before 1844.

So, I need to ask you, what is your understanding of LGT, other than a perfect character, without Christ covering their imperfections.

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lol…you can’t fight culture, Gerhard…american culture seems to be taking over the entire world…here in Canada, and especially in Alberta, sympathies for the U.S. run strong, although of course we’re not into their preoccupation with guns, or lack of universal healthcare…i think more Canadians visit the U.S. each year than any other country…and americans return the favour…every time i’m downtown i see groups of americans all over the place…i’ll be in Vancouver soon, and i know i’ll be seeing tons of americans in my hotel…

it’s just the way it is…

ha ha…yes, it is…i drink it every day…

this particular passage, and others like it, is prophecy, not counsel…egw is talking about when Christ actually does return…she is describing the state of the church that will exist at that time (the church being the 144,000, not necessarily the SDA organization)…she is referencing the collective situation of the 144,000 having received the Latter Rain, and passing through the seven last plagues as part of their experience during the Time of Trouble…she’s also factoring in the end-time Sunday laws that come with the death penalty, in which final ties of sympathy to this world will be severed…the 144,000 will be suffering hunger, weariness and delay, but their never-before-seen gift of the HS, which is what the Latter Rain represents, will sustain them through that time…it will allow them to live fully above the sinfulness of their sinful fallen human nature, which they will be freed from only at Glorification, when they ascend to meet Christ in the air…the Latter Rain will seal them to live in the sight of a holy god even though jesus has ceased his mediation for them, and for all humanity…

this state that egw is describing - christ’s character being perfectly reproduced - is exactly opposite from the state of the lost, whose cases are hopeless, given that IJ has ended…this time is still in the future…we are not living in this time now…Christ cannot be perfected in us now to an extent the world has never seen, because we aren’t living in the Time of Trouble that is more horrific than anything the world has ever seen…character perfection and circumstances go together: character perfection, to extent envision in the passage you’re citing, becomes possible only because horrific circumstances that are overcome stimulate its formation…and keep in mind that previously in the chapter you’re referencing egw says:

“The graces of the Spirit will ripen in your character.” COL:62.

character perfection, or maturation, or growth to the fullest extent genetically possible, isn’t something we do…it isn’t even something we’re counselled to do…instead, it is a gift we receive from the HS, but also as a result of being in the right place at the right time…

this passage shows us that heaven’s perspective is different from ours…we’re focussing, naturally, on the great events we must pass through before we can meet Christ in the clouds…but heaven is focussing on the changes in us that those great events will stimulate…this shows us that the Time of Trouble is permitted, not because god wants to see us suffer, but because he wants to see us grow, and be able to carry his spirit fully, which only the effects of colossal trial can accomplish…

i think you’re allowing LGT definitions and emphases to cloud your perception of what you’re reading…egw does not call for perfection that needs no mediation, or that isn’t a divine gift…

this quote is also prophecy…it’s saying that there will come a time when no-one will repent, either because they’ve already repented and have been sealed with the HS to withstand divine judgements, or because they’ve worn out their probations, and the HS has honoured their indicated wish to leave them to themselves and the control of Satan…the time that this is talking about is when IJ ceases, and Jesus is no longer interceding for humanity…

and of course god has always known who is going to repent, not merely over the past 178 yrs, but before they created planet earth…but one of the things we see in divinity is supreme self-control…there is no hint of impulsiveness in the way they do things…they are not acting out of sentimentality, or in terms of a knee-jerk response to what we, on earth, do, or even to what Satan does (whose work and plans have all been foreseen)…their plan is unfolding as they’ve willed it from the beginning, knowing that in the end, all misery, misfortune and suffering will be recognized and accounted for, and all injustice will receive it due reward…the plane of action that the godhead is operating on is vast, and infinite…they are not seeing things in the way we see it…they are acting in a way that we would act, if we could see what they see, and if we had their power…all we need to know and accept is that everything really will come out right in the end…

honestly, i think what has happened with LGT is that sincere people have been stuck with the consequences of their own limitations and inabilities…they are responding impulsively to some of the striking language egw uses without seeing the big picture…i think in some cases this may be due to intellectual deficits and general mental incapacity…but i think the bigger reason is the lack of a broad reading…some LGT persons i’ve spoken to have only been reading egw for a few yrs…they’ve only read her basic publishings once, or maybe twice…they simply do not have the comprehensive overview that it takes to comprehend the greatness that exists in egw…they think they understand her…but they’re really just toddlers kicking up an excitable fuss, and too many people are stopping what they’re doing in order to cater to them…

i do think that LGT boils down to character perfection that doesn’t need the mediation of christ…this is manifestly not what egw teaches…

I do too on occasion - a littles in sparking water. That Stephen Gundry, MD (SDA) you see all over the internet recommends apple cider vinegar, as well as, Balsamic. But then, he’s from California, soooo… :face_with_diagonal_mouth:

Gundry has a problem with lectins, which means i kind of have a problem with him, since i eat peanuts almost every day…but what i’m doing now with apple cider vinegar is adding freshly squeezed lemon juice, which is supposed to be good for your kidneys…

i have a mini Chinese orange tree with 8 bright little oranges on it…these are supposed to be much better for you than lemons, but i don’t have the heart to eat them…they’re so cute, and several of my Asian students tell me that a Chinese orange tree with more than 2 or 3 oranges on it is an indication of extreme luck and future fortune, and that they shouldn’t be eaten under any circumstances…so many of the kids go straight to this little orange tree every time they step into my house…they’d be devastated if i eat any of the little oranges…

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The technical term for this is ‘hair-splitting’. If the “prophecy” is this is the state of the church will be when Jesus comes again. Then the implied “counsel” is you better get like this to make it happen.

if you read the chapter, you’ll see that it’s the HS that makes everything happen…egw compares our growth to plants who sink their roots into the earth and turn towards the sun…what we do is sink our hearts into the word of god and look to Jesus, the sun of righteousness, and the HS will make everything happen in its time…

we don’t have to try to grow, or make ourselves perfect…we just live our lives in a connection with Christ to the best we know, and perfection, to the extent we are able, will be ours…if we are alive during the final yrs of earth history, that perfection will exceed anything seen on earth ever, not because we worked harder than anyone who has ever lived, but because we’ve been through greater trouble and trials than the world has ever seen…

egw is not talking LGT here, or anywhere…keep in mind that in her view, the thief on the cross, who had only moments of sanctification opportunity, was as perfect as Enoch, who had centuries of opportunity…and the reason is that it isn’t either the thief’s or Enoch’s perfection that’s looked at…it’s christ’s perfection, given as a gift…that perfection is equally perfect in all who receive it…and it’s the only currency for our salvation that’s accepted…there are biblical parables that illustrate this…

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The following is an excerpt from the book “Patriarchs and Prophets” (p. 89) on the last generation:
“Enoch lived a life of such close communion with God that he was not permitted to fall under the power of death. The godly character of this prophet represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be ‘redeemed from the earth’ (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ’s second advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God’s people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ”

“…shall reflect the likeness of Christ”. So the question we have to ask is, what is that ‘likeness’? I believe we can find that in the NT, as demonstrated by Christ over and over and in His words…Love your neighbor and love your God. That is from the Bible, paraphrased by me.

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Sorry, dear Brother Jeremy,

of course you can have a Starbucks coffee here downtown and buy your seasons wear at the H&M rigfht there - -and on every next corner a Mc Donalds - -

    • but you still have to know how to politely greet the town majors wife when you are on establishing a health center, according to Mrs. White - - (and then have the difficulties with the National Health Authorities - - because of lay members not meeting the required standards - -)

Two examples out of the last decades :

A Darvin anniversary. The SDA promoted a show from the GC here - OK, that is our message in viewing Rev 14 : 7.

This then in US style.

SDA provided the most expensive halls here and in the provinvcial capitals amd main cities. Many were invited. An exposition of fake antidiluvial bones, a film, an speaker in the camouflage of an explorer in Serengeti in 1900 - - the auditoriums almost completely were out of SDAs, those eagerly nodding - -.

At the same time Prof Werner Gitt, a Protestant creationist from Germany, a real Professor, dealt with the same matter in Auditorium maximum of TU Vienna - without any gadgets. The hall was crowded - with people searching, with an interest to hear something new, with many personal questions afterwards - of many ages, ederly ones and many many young ones - -

The local SDA Union almost ended in a bankruptcy ( loss anually some hundretthousands € - one € = about one US $ the year) with the Senior (Nursing) Home “Stefanie”. The institution had the best rankings in the all around care for aged, in the contentment of the inhabitants, the contentment of those working there (" Arbeitsinspektorat" !) and the hospitals surrounding the place - - (I have spoken with the provincial goverment and the medical institutions in the surrounding !)

Now in Austria with the value added by your daily production here you only receive less than fifty percent in your income, but you have full medical /social security paid by your coerced contributions - and those of your employer for you ( ! - “Dientsgeberbeitrag” ) - and your senior residence is supported by the local government. ( ! ) - The senior home allthough has to meet the governments guidlines for standarts - anhyhow.

And the “Stefanie” had the promise for such public supports, else it woud not have been kept in financial balance and survival. WIth the burden of taxes and contributions here th members of SDA just do not have the means to support the very costly econnomy of an all day care institution - -

But our “Leading Bretheren” , caught in SDA “Workin Policy” and “Adventese” speaking and thinking and doing and seeking a guidance in dayly reading of Testimonies or Minmistry of Healing simply did not know how to deal with government promises and decrees and orders and notes - - and the fact, that such documents have to pass the local provinvial assembly - - then valued there - - beginning with Jan 1, next year .- - -

“Stefanie” was sold the very last moment - - and is an enterprise with commercial profits now - -

The point of the EGW’s quote is that the level of Christian maturity of the last generation will be such that it perfectly reflects the character of Christ. I believe that Martin Luther will be saved, but his character did not fully reflect that of Christ. This is evidenced by his attitude towards the Jews.