A Pastoral Message from Trans-European Division President Raafat Kamal

that’s interesting…my impression was that TW was a strong personality and that he was going to be intentional about being adventist…but i have to say, i never dreamed he’d engineer one part of the church steam-rolling another part, just because it had the votes, and because it apparently aligned with his own views…i didn’t see any of what i could see was his strong personality being threatening in any way…

but we have to see the reality of what we’re looking at now, which is that TW isn’t being pastoral…he’s being the divider in chief…he’s using his executive talent to engineer what looks to me to be some kind of personal vendetta against PUC and CUC…

i would actually support TW’s impeachment at this point, if this is possible…or maybe we have the equivalent of a 25th amendment that could be used…what we saw at san antonio, and now at battle creek, is against the bible’s model, in Acts 15, of accommodating differences…had the council of jerusalem put circumcision up for a vote, it obviously would have passed, and all the gentile male christians would have needed to be circumcised…but that’s not what the council of jerusalem did…and that dual policy of accommodation is what our GC has ignored…it’s inexcusable for our GC to veer so directly against what the bible calls for…


Jeremy –
IF Mark, Michael Ryan, and others in the Presidents special group HAD promoted a
Different Course, they would have LOST their positions. This was a case of wanting
the praise and glory they received for being in the Presidents Special Circle. NOW
they are going to be remembered for being PART of CAUSING the DISUNITY that
the President has caused, and that He PROPHECIED he would do in his speeches.
TW’s prophecies were EASY to pick up if one was LISTENING.
Apparently Mark, Michael, and other DID NOT CARE.


This is only words, words, words.If there was no unity, it is not there. And voting is always 2/3, not 100%. When will vote in unanimity at 100%. And when they will participate in the deliberations of the old men as in the OT and NT.

Why would you bother. Why would you bother to stay.

It is common when things are not going well, that we trot out that we will just focus on Jesus. By doing this, we will be able to survive, pull through, blot out what is occurring, garner strength to do our regular tasks.

But is that approach really helping. Women are still seen as unequal. Youth still see the church as irrelevant. And by just driving a message of focusing on Jesus, the church continues to become more irrelevant. The problems are not being resolved, rather, they are becoming more entrenched.

A clean break is needed. There will be short-term disruption. But after that, each side will be able to more fully focus on Jesus, and ministry.

And there will be a much greater sense of inner peace. No more conflict over being aligned with a denomination that is not fit for purpose (be it from the perspective of a conservative or a progressive).

I am all for a steady hand on the tiller. But you have to be on the right boat.


the case of mark finley is especially disappointing…he’s a new englander, and attended AUC, which is where i went to school…he was kind of a hero, almost an icon, in those days…to see him turn himself into a yes-man, and on the wrong side of the question, as he approaches his senior yrs, is about as bad as seeing AUC shut down permanently…it’s all like autumn leaves blowing in the wind…

well, that’s the question many are asking now…i think the hope is that TW will retire at indianapolis 2020, which is only 2 yrs away, and that someone very different will take over…


Like any relationship, if it will not interfere with the core values which make up a relationship, then let it be. It is like men, who tell their girlfriends, that their friends are bad influence, and they have to choose, cut ties with her friends or boyfriend leaves. That is not love, that is not Jesus Christ centered.
We have brothers and sisters who worship on Sundays, Adventist, yet women’s ordination or womens equality is regarded as the greater threat to unity. When one of our core values are broken, Sabbath observance, that should be addressed, but it is not, because the issue is not about observance of God, but rather observance of man.

Jeremy, you never got as many “likes” from me as lately.
Man, your eyes are really open!
Regarding impeachment, forget it. It would require the votes from Africa, so… never mind!


They could have ended up like Czech Foreign Minister Jan Garrigue Masaryk (14 September 1886 – 10 March 1948)… who, it was said, committed suicide by jumping from the window… He definitely " lost his position"…
(Some people say that, “Jan Masaryk was a very tidy man. He was such a tidy man that when he jumped he shut the window after himself.”:roll_eyes:)

Those guys at the GC would, sooner or later, ended “under the bus!”

Pastor Raafat’s pastoral message shows us the way through the complexity facing our church today. It gives me courage that, with Christ’s help, we will come through it intact and be a wiser church, better able to understand the meaning of unity for the Christian.

The definition of unity is seen by many to refer to agreement in biblical interpretation, and hence agreement on policy. But biblical interpretation is evidently governed by cultural understanding. We know that because the majority of delegates opposed to Division self-determination on WO are also opposed to WO itself. They also tend towards the 1Corinthians 14:34 model of the role of women in Church. Conversely, those in favour of self-determination are also in favour of WO, and tend toward the Galatians 3:28 model.

Obviously unity is not to be found at this level, and it is a mistake to try to enforce it among a twenty-million membership. Therefore, we must look elsewhere to understand the meaning of unity. Pastor Raafat looks to Christ as the Great Unifier of His people, and he is obviously right. Therefore, it seems to me that our leadership, rather than focusing on compliance, should be focusing on ways to bring us to unity in Christ. One way might be to spend more time in prayer and less on debate. Another might be to stop swiping at our leaders and to pray for them. Another might be to recognize that our earthly cultures must always come second to our kingdom culture. Those wiser than me will no doubt come up with more ways.


10/25/18 - #15

I went to academy with Mike Ryan. It’s been teeth-gritting hard to watch these Annual Councils with Mike acting like that.

What should one expect from a multi-billion dollar, hierarchical, 501c3 multinational trademarked corporation that regularly uses the power of the State against individuals?

Where in the Bible is such a behemoth anticipated, but in the Book of Revelation?


Adding my voice, I have learned more here after joining that I have…well pretty much ever…


This is true, we get a lot of information here from people who are well versed in SDAism. Very educational.

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Jeremy, please take note that it is not just the Southeastern or Southern California Conferences that are using “ordained” women pastors. Recently the Northern California Conference appointed a woman as senior pastor at the Elmshaven ("The Haven) Church which was historically the St. Helena Sanitarium Church and overlooks Elmshaven, Ellen White’s home.


I always thought the Wesley quote was by Melanchthon. Could someone fact check. While I love the sentiment, I have also have to acknowledge that you have to define each category. What is essential for me might not be essential to you.

Wouldn’t it be refreshing if the Divisions called for a summit to find common ground in Christ? They could call it a “Unity Conference.” Men AND women could come together in a more representative ethnic, gender and age diverse group to discuss, pray, with the FIRST Goal being finding common round in Christ and a way to move ahead.

Do you know how many ideas are out there for finding common ground? The spirit would be entirely different than “let’s put together a plan to punish.”

They could begin by looking at the recommendations from the TOSC report. The entire church could pray for weeks leading up to this conference.

Do you realize how much prayer has been going on about this issue? Ongoing for years. God, please help us to work together to find a way ahead not to just (as I often see here) order people to leave the church if they don’t agree with leadership’s authoritarian moves.

We need to address the resentment/grudge-holding from the folks in Africa (for what they say is Westerners bringing liquor and monogamy among other things), get it on the table and find ways to move ahead. Our young generations have no idea that these grudges are motivating culturally based votes.

I’m waiting to hear about an international conference for common ground in Christ.


There is a little Methodist book, 67 pages, by Rueben P. Job. Titled “Three Simple
Rules – A Wesleyan Way of Living.”, 2007.
++ Do No Harm “By doing no harm, by avoiding evil of every kind, especially that
which is most generally practiced,” Discipline, 2004, no.103.
++ Do Good. “By doing good; by being in every kind merciful after their power; as they
have opportunity, doing good of every possible sort, and, as far as possible, to all …”,
Discipline, 2004, no. 103.
++ Stay in Love With God. “By attending upon all the ordinances of God…”, Discipline,
no. 103.
“Ordinances” by pastor Wesley are – public worship of God, the Lord’s Supper, private
and family prayer, searching Scriptures, Bible study, and fasting as essential to faithful life.
— Wesley saw these three disciplines as central to any life of faithfulness to God in Christ.
Consistent practice of these spiritual disciplines kept those who sought to follow Christ in
touch with the presence and power of Christ so they could fulfill their desire to live as
faithful disciples.

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True Unity will only be possible when the GC stops their insane pursue of equating UNITY with UNIFORMITY. But they won, because they are not actually looking for unity they are looking for POWER by imposing uniformity.

Fortunately, the GC will NEVER reach its goal, because the more they press on toward their Machiavellian plan, the more disunity they create!


And more and more women are being called to preach all over the world. It’s an exciting time for the Gospel to move forward.


This GC is clearly isolating themselves. Some Unions will continue authorizing ordination of women, some won’t. The GC will continue being what it is, irrelevant!


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