Last night I actually watched one of his sermons online, it was as good as in those 4 years I spent there.
I am deeply blessed as a new SDB member in the Portland Area SDB church, here in Oregon.
I hope one day to meet pastor Gabe and learn, off of the Internet, about his humanitarian visits to the refugee camps in countries where we both lived in our youth. Countries where our hearts and desires to make a difference for the desperately needy still are. Countries where living the life and sharing only very focused life and teaching of Christ in the four Gospels, would make the greatest and lasting difference for humanity.
The SDBs have a great emotional environment around them. Nothing like the constantly convoluted SDA dynamics. I pretty much enjoyed the time I spent among them. Pastor Gabe baptized two of my children.
I’m curious why you thought that the SDA church needed to be involved, or interested in them? People have wonderful relationships with God, without the SDA church being involved, right?
I wish the church of my birth, SDAs, could and would read the Beliefs of Seventh Day Baptists on their website and adopt their other beliefs, in addition the the Seventh Day Sabbath, adopted from them so many years ago. The continued, constant doctrinal dispute drama between Adventists as documented in Spectrum and Fulcrum7 could disappear. Adventists could finally be lead from “the Lesser Light” to “the Greater Light”. Adventists could then sing with great honesty and truth, the Christian hymn “On Christ the Solid Rock I Stand, All Other Ground is Sinking Sand!”. Then, they could finally begin to carry out Christ’s Great Commission in the last three verses of Matt. 28. Wishing you and all readers the best in our spiritual quest for truth. Truth not compromised by “cunningly devised fables” and “traditions of men” that the Scriptures and Christ tried ot warn us about.
Up until a year ago when we moved to the Oregon Coast I was a member of and attended at two church, SDA on Saturday and UUC (Unitarian) on Sunday. Frankly I found more fellowship, love, concern, and acceptance among the UUC congregation but had much more in common and a degree of traditional comfort with the SDA’s, of course, having been SDA my entire life.
One of the most enjoyable things about the UUC congregation was the diversity of beliefs, yet the unity of purpose, concern, and caring for each other. Also I very much enjoyed our female clergy.
The one time when the sermon was presented by a Wican, and extolling the virtues of that faith was a real squirming moment for me, and I still cannot accept that religion as being in any was as a salvational religion. At the same time I found it easy to accept the few Wican members we had as on an equal basis with myself without malice or distaste on my part entering into my association with them.
I have known persons of the Wican persuasion.
What you witnessed there was Wicans who allowed themselves to continue to
be seekers of the Divine.
Maybe the UUC members you worshiped with hadn’t found “Jesus” as yet. But they
are seekers seeking after the Divine.
It is OK to be “Agnostic” – seekers of the Divine and Truth.
Continue to enjoy this community whenever it is available to you.
Perhaps your Wican and UUC friends are like my friends who wrote the Psalms
2500 to 3000 years ago. They did not know “Jesus” either, but they were seekers
of the Divine and Truth – felt assured of Salvation.
A number experienced God, the Servant, waiting on them, providing them gifts,
some reported Gifts of Food to banquet their enemies [Ps. 23].
I didn’t realize that you don’t believe in the New Testament Gospel commission and the Pentecost. Sorry to have assumed, Frank.
REMIND Frank that MEN in Old Testament times had MANY MORE Unclean days
that Women ever had!!
Remember those were days when no one knew about UNIVERSAL PRECAUTIONS.
Problems with Blood and Body Fluids.
Problems with Germs, Bacteria, Viruses.
God reminds humans that He is the same yesterday, today, forever.
Recall it was God who told Moses Women can inherit land just the same as Men.
There are some N.T. scholars who think the comments about women in Timothy was
at one time a Marginal Note, but one of the copyists later mistakenly added it to the
Letter. And so now we have to live with that statement in the SDA church worship
Of course I believe in the NT gospel, I prefer it, as everyone does. Yet there is a stark difference between the gospel God spoke to Moses and the NT. Enough to cause one to wonder why there is not more harmony, since God does not change? There is more salvation by obedience in the OT and Moses and Aaron would laugh at the very idea of ordaining women to the priesthood. Although I support WO, it is at the expense of Torah values. I really wish the gospel messages was identical in OT and NT.
I believe the Issue in Frank’s conflict is understanding that the Sanctuary–Temple
services were instituted at Sinai. And it was God’s lessons in Redemption by
acting out in “theater” by what was performed at the Sanctuary–Temple, and by
what they acted out with the FOUR major events during the year.
And by the tzitzits on their clothes, the blue threads. The messages carried on their
bodies, placed on door so see going in and out of the house.
When Jesus died that ENDED the Sanctuary–Temple “theater pagentry”. Christ was
NOW in heaven and we were to pray to the Trinity who were in heaven. To now receive
Grace and Forgiveness based on the blood Jesus shed for the WHOLE WORLD, covered
the whole world from the times of Adam and Eve to the time of His RETURN.
The Torah Values of one’s LIFE-STYLE before God has NOT CHANGED. And Since the
Torah Was given beginning at Sinai [for Christians it is celebrated as Pentecost]. God continued to
call and provide teaching regarding one’s LIFE-STYLE all the way through the Babylonian
Captivity through Their many prophets They sent. If one reads the Apocropha as instructional,
then messages for LIFE-STYLE after the Babylonian Captivity and resettling of Israel.
Torah Values of one’s LIFE-STYLE are still of value in 2018. The ONLY difference is
NO MORE NEED FOR PRIESTS doing what they did, NO MORE PRAYERS TO THE
JERUSALEM TEMPLE. Our prayers go to the Father, Christ, Holy Spirit in heaven now.
We are FREE to have fun with the 4 yearly Festivals, but are NOT necessary.
Christ has elevated everyone to EQUALITY before the Trinity, Paul says Master and Servant
are BROTHERS. Equal before God. Women/Men equal before God. And by Paul’s example,
Women and Men are equally called and equipped by God to lead congregation and to develop
To be complete in the Trinity, the OT AND the NT provide instruction and directions on HOW
to walk in “THE WAY”, as early Christians called it. And we NEED both the OT and NT messages.
[PS – that is WHY I enjoy my Sunday church services. We hear readings from the OT, NT,
The Gospels, and we SING the Psalm for the day --4 Bible Readings. and not just a verse
or two as during my Sabbath services]
Thank you for your explanation. I have always tried to explain to others and myself that OT laws were the results of the Sanctuary. Yet I have struggled to fully accept this simple answer. Why, because there was many laws that had nothing to do with the sanctuary service. Just to name the few. Strange, none of these laws would Christians even think of following.
Forbidden to mix clothes and garden seeds
Could own slaves of other nations not subject to 7 year release
Could beat your slave with no consequences as long as they could rise in 3 days
Could sell your daughter into slavery, not your sons.
Could stone you bride if not a virgin when married, with no test for men.
Could take second wifes or slave wives, as long as you treated them alike (Wife could not have multiple husbands)
Could practice trial by ordeal on a assumed unfaithful wife, but not the husband.
Women were given no political, religious or military position of respect.
One of your best comments of all times, Steve…and I have read many by you through the years. If you are only comfortable with “your kind” then, for a fact, you will only be successful with those that are of the same “club”. Then SDAs wonder why they still haven’t reached the world with the Gospel.
I just want to get in the discussion for the sake of doing so. The year was 1895 when Elizabeth Cady Stanton published The Woman’s Bible along with 26 other women. Stanton proceeded to say, " Stanton wrote: “We have made a fetich of the Bible long enough. The time has come to read it as we do all other books, accepting the good and rejecting the evil it teaches.” In other words, she was willing to throw away parts of the Word of God if it didn’t fit with her theology.
Now you might be saying, “What does that have to do with this whole debate?” People claim to believe in the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White, but many people only accept the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy when they fall in line with their own theology. In other words, they have actually made themselves the authority even though Proverbs 16:25 say, “There is a way that seemeth right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”
Now Ellen White makes these two very clear statements, "At times, when a small group of men entrusted with the general management of the work have, in the name of the General Conference, sought to carry out unwise plans to restrict God’s work, I have said that I could no longer regard the voice of the General Conference, represented by these few men, as the voice of God. But this is not saying that the decisions of a General Conference composed of an assembly of duly appointed, representative men from all parts of the field should not be respected. LDE 55.4
God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority. The error that some are in danger of committing is in giving to the mind and judgment of one man, or of a small group of men, the full measure of authority and influence that God has invested in His church in the judgment and voice of the General Conference assembled to plan for the prosperity and advancement of His work.—Testimonies for the Church 9:260, 261 (1909).LDE 56.1
Now I was sitting there in San Antonio, TX in 2015 when the vote was cast not to allow Unions (or divisions) to make their own decisions regarding ordination. Furthermore, it was not a few people from the GC making all the decisions. Duly elected leaders from all parts of the world made that decision, and if EGW is right than their decision in San Antonio should be respected by everyone no matter how close the vote, and I am sure that if the vote had gone the other way than those in favor of women’s ordination would be using these same quotes.
The problem with the church today is that many people have this mindset that if I don’t like the way something is done in church than it must wrong. Or, I don’t like the way the vote went in San Antonio so it must be wrong SO I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT. Sadly, this mindset is rebellious, and pardon my harshness but it is the same mindset that Lucifer had in heaven. He didn’t want to accept the order that God had set up. Satan wanted to be on equality with God as opposed to bowing in worship to God. Lucifer wanted to be the authority.
Friends, regardless of your own personal hurts and feelings, we’ve got to come to the point where we say that we will accept the decision of the church in GC session, or just come out and say you don’t believe in the writings of EGW.
Well you might say, “She spoke of women as pastors…” Women as commissioned pastors has been allowed for a while now.
Others will say that this was the work of Ted Wilson. This is one of the most INSULTING THINGS IN THE WORLD TO SAY. Why? It is because you are implying that the numerous people from Third World countries (and delegates right here in the NAD) were too dumb to think for themselves and like animals they just followed whatever Ted Wilson said. First of all, THEY WERE NOT INFLUENCED. THEY MADE THEIR OWN DECISION. Secondly, we need to stop trying to decipher a motive behind why the vote went the way it did in San Antonio and JUST ACCEPT THE VOTE.
I defy the extreme idea that this is a civil rights issue. Since when should civil rights supercede Biblical order? I know what you’re going to say, “It did as it relates to race because churches were wrong on the race question.” You’re absolutely correct, but there’s no scripture in the Bible that says that Blacks should treated unequal with whites. However, there is Scripture in the Bible that clearly speaks of woman not having authority over a man, the head of the woman being the man, a woman’s desire being to a man and him ruling over her, etc.)
I’m just saying that those who are against women’s ordination have a clear Biblical foundation for their belief, and if the church in GC session with people from all over the world make a decision disallowing woman’s ordination and disallowing each division from deciding who can or cannot be ordained than WE OUGHT TO RESPECT THE CHURCH.
This philosophy has seeped into the Adventist Church at an alarming rate.
The wholesale throwing out of the doctrine of the Trinity is being embraced by those who oppose ordaining women to the Gospel ministry. The eternal subjugation of the Son to the Father essentially making the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ unequal in the Trinity. This is an attempt to make a theological/doctrinal issue of opposing women and throwing away the Word of God to fit with their anti-ordination for women theology.
Thanks for pointing this out. Men’s stunted understanding and promotion of theology outside our Fundamental Beliefs to justify the subjugation of women in spiritual leadership.
Thank God that we have faithful members and leaders who stand up for truth despite endangering their jobs, reputations, and futures.
Apparently there is a way that seems right (not believing in the Trinity) but the end are the ways of death. Sadly.
Kudos to those with consciences that stand for truth though the Heavens fall.
I see that I’m dealing with someone who wants to just with the heavy hitters, but are you sure you can handle my comeback?
Here’s my comeback. I am praying that God will continue to speak to us as we study His word and lead us and guide us into all truth.
"Here’s my comeback. I am praying that God will continue to speak to us as we study His word and lead us and guide us into all truth."
We all do here, 21stcenturysda…even though I do not agree with some of your comment- I believe that you believe in God and that He will guide us into all truth.
What you said “God will continue to speak to us as we study His word and lead us
and guide us into all truth” is Absolutely CORRECT!
THIS IS WHY IT IS IMPORTANT FOR UNITY IN DIVERSITY!
I wonder if the church is infallible? Does it ever error? Does the majority ever error?
Here is where the GC leaders errored. Since WO cannot be supported by Scriptures alone, one way or the other way. Think of the GC committee that met and could not reach a Biblical agreement. The issue becomes a conscience and social issue. For the leadership to allow the conscience and social ethics of one group of believers to rule another’s conscience is wrong.
One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind." Apostle Paul
Great comment, Frank…thoughtful questions and conclusion.