Adventism at the Crossroads — Part 1

Adventism is in need of a paradigm shift! An ideological shift with practical implications that will make it more responsive and relevant to an emerging generation and a dynamic world. While the growth of Adventism globally has been celebrated, disruptions that we have seen due to the COVID-19 pandemic have seismic implications for the Adventist Church. In every sector there is talk of a new way of doing business as some businesses have closed shop for good while the survivors have had to transform their way of doing business.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at

Amen. And amen. (expanding to make the 20 required characters)


Well, yes. Yet more change is needed than that if it is to retain the woke generations. Including me (and I’m 54.)

For starters, the church needs to stop teaching nonsense science and nonsense medicine and abject misogyny.

Attempts to usurp science with the bible are tired and history shows they just don’t work.

  • Teaching that the earth is ~10,000 years old. Utter nonsense.
  • Claiming there really was a world-wide flood. Even more implausible.
  • Generally, claiming bible stories are literal history - they’re not.

Statements of biology, especially relating to human sexuality are becoming ridiculous.

  • Claiming we are all either male or female. Nonsense, even from a purely genetic/hard-science viewpoint. Never-mind other ‘softer’ and also valid viewpoints, such as concepts of gender.
  • Continuing to discount and vilify and reject the LGBTQ+ community due to a sophomoric understanding of scripture.

Misogyny. It doesn’t fly anymore.

  • The insistence on paying women less then men - even while breaking local laws.
  • Its refusal to ordain women, again due to very suspect interpretation of scripture (or not even that, sometimes).
  • Petty refusal to even acknowledge Sandra Roberts, president of the SECC.

Tim, so you are 54 and already with an accumulated wisdom of a 70 y/o guy? Fantastic!!! … :innocent:

This pandemic forced new situations, new “normals,” new everything. In my case, I am not sure that I will ever go to a physical Church again. I learned that I can attend a great SS class via zoom and have even a more dynamic participation than otherwise. In my case, thanks to @elmer_cupino’s referral, I am now attending the Roy Branson Legacy SS (in Loma Linda, coordinated online by David Larson).

I also learned that I can interact in such a class for two hours (official length) and sometimes it goes up to three hours. Nobody wants to leave the “zoom room” because the content is actually worth the time.

Then there is the convenience of not having to swallow some inconvenient music that we have to take in when captive on the pew…

I wonder if the changes imposed by COVID-19 will lead to a complete change in the way we do church. Many (many!) jobs may be on the line too… A great opportunity to get rid of the GC since it’s been completely irrelevant anyway.


I wish that was true here so badly! It’s just like the schools – the churches were intransigent about reopening ASAP. Got to get back to that same old routine! Masks? Social distancing? Naw, lol.

(Now I watch a congregation that puts real effort and real resources into their online programs, and you can tell the difference. It’s like night and day.)

I don’t disagree, but I’d also say that it breeds hostility. Those few leading out can become a privileged inner circle that can’t be broken into. There are people out there who would LOVE to help out, and who could contribute in a genuine and meaningful way. But at most, they’ll be invited to, like, read the scripture.

Eventually they get disillusioned, and either the flame goes out or they leave.


How true it is!

I won’t be the one to pop their bubble

Adventist online mega-churches? Fewer SDA voices being heard in the pulpits by collaborating? And a more cohesive group think? The limitation of variety has the potential to yield a mono-mano-problem! And with the SDA pastor pulp pop stars being approved by the system, what unknown consequences lie ahead?

I totally agree with the statement. Our churches have gotten to routine and rigid. We wear out the volunteers with to many programs on sabbath which leads to burn out.


Adventism is going to change. The luciferians that are in the church are going to get spewed out. Those wolves in sheep’s clothing who have been conspiring to kill God’s people will be judged. Judgement begins in the house of God and all of adventism will understand that there is an investigative judgement.

Those who cling to Masonic ideals will be spewed out of the church. God does not enjoy murderers and child molesters posing as Christians. The time for the prophets of Baal in Israel is almost done.

This is the first I’ve heard of this. What are you referring to?

Are the Luciferians an organized group?
Do they hold regular meetings? If so, do they publish minutes?
How do they plan to identify and kill Gods people?

I don’t know much about the Masons. What Masonic ideals do you refer to? Who sill spew them from the church?

I though that ship sailed 2,500 years ago. We have people in the church worshiping other gods? Again, I didn’t know.


Proposal for change, the practical deal:

The only purpose of influence within the Church is to educate.

Pastors are facilitators of education, passionate about education.

Sermons are interactive workshops on practical living.

Adventist theology is normalized within its existing truths.

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I’m pretty much lost here to Tim. I need more information about these murderers, child molesters, etc…


I know what you were really getting at, but the honest answer is apparently yes, a stunning number.

Ronald Lawson’s article here on Spectrum quotes a 2013 study by the University of Eastern Africa. 23% of SDAs “felt safe” using witchcraft. He also discusses several instances of ancestral and demon worship he witnessed in New Guinea that are incredibly disturbing.

I have no reason to disbelieve him, and it certainly cast SDA global “growth” in a new light. I wasn’t aware the Third Angel’s Message™ was “eh, just baptize whoever shows up this week.”

I have no doubt that it will impact jobs…because it already is. We aren’t through this whole Covid thing yet and we may have a long time to go before it is. If a church layer or two disappeared…not many in the churches would even notice it. One could venture to say that nearly NO one would notice.


Churches always try to fill positions even when it makes no sense to have them or do them well. Usually what is said is, “People/visitors expect it”.

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This is why we are here, Chuck…to be “taught” by those who “know”. :slight_smile:


Well, I’d say none of that is real. The Church invented witches, historically. And personally I don’t think demons or ghosts are real. Or hell. All are made up by the Church or inherited from the Pagan religious beliefs of the early Christians. Same with the Saints. These are just leftovers from from polytheistic religions. Their current incarnations.

It is actually interesting that parts of the bible take for granted the existence of many real gods, and parts teach that Yahweh killed the other gods (or had plans to), which we mostly choose to ignore as it’s inconvenient. But still, I put most of those ideas in the legend/fairy tale category.


In case you did not know, Q4 (Oct.-Dec.) in the adult lesson study guide will be on Christian Education. Since the average age in my group is something north of 60, does anyone have a suggestion about some other study guide or topic we might use? We are happily meeting on ZOOM, and are serious bible students. I would welcome any ideas or past experience with something other than the lesson quarterly.


How about:

Or the other two books by Brian Bull & Fritz Guy?

We studied this one in our SS. Very enlightening:


Wow Tim! Thanks heaps! I’m going to order them both ASAP and see which would work best. I really appreciate your response.


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The Roy Branson SS from Loma Linda just completed a study on the intertestamentary period and its influence on Judaism and its contribution to the theology of God.

Go for it.