Most assuredly…
#20
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Oh Steve, I was around. I am older than you may think… (can’t you figure it out based on my wisdom? 
)
I remember those charts, they were also very popular in Brazil in those times; I was properly indoctrinated on those issues 
. And even later on, in college, we still saw that stuff.
Do you think that the fact that I cannot remember the details of that “stuff” may actually be a sign of Alzheimer’s?? Or may there be other reasons?.. 
@elmer_cupino
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Yes! You are probably correct Andre. Perhaps historicism is virtually dead in serious circles. Should this really be a concern of ours! Afterall Adventists are practiced in holding to unique doctrines when good reasons to do so present themselves. But is historicism dead for the reason you suggest. It seems to me that historicism revived in the period of the Protestant Reformation to the degree that Protestant historiography succeeded. And it has withered in the last 200 years to the degree that such historiography has been neglected.
I certainly am thankful for the maturing of understanding among Adventists with regard to biblical eschatology. We have left behind many less than adequate interpretations and embraced more adequate interpretations.
The springboard passage of Rev 11:17,18 appears to supply a number of thematic statements which outline the structure and thematic content of the second half of the book. The first of these is the assertion that “You have taken your great power and reigned.” (v17). This is followed by five more basic statements: “the nations are angry;” “your wrath has come;” “the time for the dead to be judged;” “to give reward to your servants;” and “to destroy those who destroy the earth.” (v18).
These basic statements reinforce the need for a kingdom theology (v17), and also an understanding of the wrath of God and of judgement. (v18). Notice how all of these three elements are brought to view and highlighted in the proclamations of the three angels of Revelation 14: 6-12 and worked out in the surrounding chapters.
The proclamation of the first of these angels is nothing other than the pronouncement of the fact that Christ has indeed become Christus victor, having won the war against his universal enemies. By his death and resurrection, Christ asserted his right to rule. Unlike in the Old Testament, when the heralds of victory ran fleet-footed over the mountains to announce this in Jerusalem, Rev 14:6 portrays a universal proclamation facilitated by heralds of victory flying in mid heaven round the circle of the earth. This first herald of victory invites people to respond with an awe-filled, joyful and worshipful response to their Sovereign and the glad-tidings and good news of universal victory over their enemies. It is time for this Sovereign to come in judgement as He mops up in the aftermath of His victory in the battle.
The second herald of victory follows close behinf the first, announcing the fall of the Babylonian empire. She has fallen indeed because she as a global colossus has caused all nations to imbibe the same spirit of rebellion against the now victorious and rightful universal ruler.
The third herald of victory warns concerning being identified as in league with the beastly enemy as the Universal Ruler comes in judgement again the enemy and all who identify with him. His judgement will be executed with wrath unmixed with mercy. This identification mark of the beast that identifies the Sovereign Ruler’s mortal enemies is an identification mark of the beast’s own choosing. The mark most aptly symbolizes their rebellion against their new Sovereign’s reign over them.
Enough of Rev 14:6-12 for the moment!
In taking a look at the program book of the Fourth International Bible Conference on biblical eschatology I am excited about several different dynamics that are quite evident.
There appears to be a real balance between Old Testament Studies, New Testament Studies, Theology, Church History, and Adventist Studies. There also appears to be a balanced beween seasoned contributors to Adventist eschatological understanding and newer scholars and theologians. The international mix of scholarship taken from throughout the Adventist world is highly commendable. If not mistaken all Divisions of the world field are represented with our flagship institutions as well as our smaller institutions represented. Our Biblical scholars need to make themselves mutually accountable in their task of rightly dividing the Word of truth and growing in their understanding. The Plenary Speakers also certainly would have provided much food for thought.
Once again, this blog site certainly does itself no favours by seeming not to seek contributions and reports from attendees at the Conference. Instead, it seems to open up the floor for every non-attending man and his dog to take pot shots at it in their ignorance for the most part of what was said and done.
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I always have the impression that T Norman Clair W likes to push the REPEAT button because the world audience always responds astonished 
at how much he is accomplishing about keeping the Church faithful. It certainly generate more votes for him at election times.
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Any info on how mane THEOLOGIANS were actually present?
I didn’t realize the sale of those charts were so wide spread – outside the U.S.
Actually, in the late 50’s there were smaller ones around for “home use”.
It is curious that they haven’t made a come-back in popularity.
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Thanks Tony for posting this. Now we have at least something to see about this conference. Very helpful.
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It appears that the Rome Conference was more of a “Celebration & Reaffirmation” of what was always that way… Just to show the world that nothing has changed.
Impressive, indeed (based on the program posted by Tony/Historic). Some good names were present, talented people. I can only think how much time those people spent to prepare their speeches…
The GC indeed threw a great (gigantic) party. I am only missing what was the actual, real concrete goal of all that majestic event. The façade was impressive, but the real goal is not that clear, is it?
The accomplishments must certainly justify the enormous cost of such an event. Can anyone find out how much it was? It must be a secret (aka classified information…), of course. But there are always leakers around… some of them in the form of a parakeet…
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Here’s a sample of the materials presented. It is passed on as “fresh” biblical evidence for 1844 but as the author acknowledges, it is based on 7 highly questionable assumptions (and previously refuted) about Daniel and apocalyptic prophecy in general.
This article shows how our eschatology is not in dialogue with serious Evangelical (never mind historical-critical) scholarship.
As an example of a refuted Adventist assumption, in this article I show through really “fresh” textual evidence how Dan 8 undeniably speaks of a Greek, not Roman, little horn.
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The given effect of talented educated individuals giving their speeches is to affirm what we teach must be the truth. Considering how many accomplished men also believe it. As with most seminars, the subject matter is soon forgotten. What remains is the impressions, the friendships, the networks built and the joy of knowing the truth. The feeling that you belong to a movement that is much greater than the small area you represent. There is a feeling of being indebted to the church for paying your way, that prevents dwelling on objections.
Why was the event situated Rome, when prophecy points to Rome as the Anti-Christ? The cost including not only pre-paid guest speakers but attendees with all accommodations paid for. My guess the event would exceed the 1 million tithe figure, if not much more.
I wonder when we will find out that live on-line seminars are more cost effect. With the savings we can sponsor for several years traveling dental and health vans to offer low-cost to free services in poverty areas of society. The words “blessed are the poor” points us to not neglect them in favor of the educated and influential. But we all do!
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Peter, I think your claim that Protestant historiography succeeded during the Reformation is debatable. If we consider,for example, Wylie and D’Aubigne and the later “Great Controversy,” said to be written by EGW, we would have to conclude that they were extremely one-eyed or biased in their treatment of historical facts. In all three writers they paid no attention to Protestant persecutions of Roman Catholics. It was all about the RCs persecuting the Protestants. It was not a balanced treatment.
SDAs have inherited that imbalance and it colors their interpretations of Scripture.
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In a series of the “Signs of the Times,” EGW printed a series on the reformation. The context was almost word for word D’Aubigne. To her credit EGW did recommend church members buy D’Aubigne book on the reformation. I do agree with you that his book does picture the Catholic as driven by corruption and the reformers as all heros.
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That kind of seminar is NOT an event for the Church, it’s an event exclusively for the participants. Those people go there, deliver elaborate speeches, tap each other on the shoulder, and go home. Who in the local churches learns about those speeches? NOBODY!
We here at Spectrum have the fortune of having people (like Andre @areis74) who will certainly post some of those papers presented.
And of course, those participants are under the big scrutiny of the KGG. Their presentations may ended up being the decisive factor for promotions or demotions. Don’t we know how that works? It’s been the same for ages (I mean… almost two centuries…)
QUESTION:
We live in an era of extremely easy-to-use technology. Why didn’t they put that conference LIVE on the Internet for the whole SDA world to watch it?
Anyone wants to venture answering this question?
(Unless I missed it, but it appears that it was a party only for a selected group)
Look, they spent a fortune to make that conference happen, what would be the additional cost of showing it to the whole Church around the world?
Again, there is something "fishing & itching* about this conference!
André, I bet you were never consulted about going to the Rome Conference, right?.. 
And hey buddy, after publishing you refutation, don’t ever expect to be invited for anything by the official branches of the Church. This would be a very unrealistic expectation! You are done for life!.. 
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Thanks André for posting this material. I didn’t read it yet (will I?) but I bet there is nothing “fresh” there. Nothing that Desmond Ford (@gford1) must certainly have already touched before since he was very thorough in his research on the issue.
I only wonder what “fresh” BIBLICAL material they have been presenting now… Are you sure it is “fresh material” and not “fish material?”…
You’ll be surprised! 
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The longer the toe nails of the statue of Daniel 2 get, the more likely we will have to re~evaluate our historical understandings!
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Muita frescura?.. LOL
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Greater lessons? Here is the first prophecy given, as easy to understand as one could get from God, and it is ignored for “greater lessons”. I don’t think so. How long have folk been arguing about this? One builds from simpler to more complex, and God shows us by this example. I think you have missed the greater lesson.
And, a. it is the _legs and toes_were divided, and there is no intimation that the toes represent the 10 kingdoms in Dan 7, though that is an inference that one is free to make. b. Your assessment of Medo-Persia doesn’t seem quite right. It lasted for many years. Are you thinking of it being Media only? c. I don’t deny the cultural aspects, but they are minor issues. d. Time is not mentioned here, but only a progression from a beginning to an end. Now that is an important idea, striking at the cyclical thinking of the ancients.
And, finally, the introduction to the dream, the king thinking of the future and what would come to pass, clearly sets this dream up as a historical vision, not a cultural one.
One of the reasons Adventism gives such hope is that its interpretation of prophecy shows that God could indeed see to our day, and we are not forgotten. And you would downplay that? It is a wonderful characteristic of our religion. You giver to much away for little received.
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