Adventists and the Wall


(Cfowler) #192

I’ve been wanting to ask this basic question. Should the US have borders and regulate immigration, or should we have open borders, where anyone and everyone can come in, at any and all times?


(George Tichy) #193

I support borders and a regulated immigration process.
However, I do not support a medieval wall. It works in China, who has a long wall and no Mexicans coming to their country. :roll_eyes: But we don’t need that, we need technology!

By the way, the Mexicans are relieved now, their anguish is decreasing: After all, they won’t need to pay for a wall… So say Nancy Pelosi & Chuck Schumer!.. :wink:


(C. Evans) #194

I am one for legal immigrants coming through under Federal Law. But I am not for a wall. Double, triple or whatever is needed in border patrol agents and other resources. Spend the money we now spend sending money to these countries that are sticking it to us for paying for these new jobs.
It’s interesting though that the Pope says “Christians don’t build walls”. Yet there is a forty foot wall around the Vatican. So Catholics are not Christians?


(Patrick Travis) #195

C.Evans,
Why would you create a bureaucratic mess hiring more people and expense when a barrier would stop the majority of illegal crossings? Add to it, technology and additional agents as needed.
I too am for immigrants coming to the US through the legal process…just like most countries do.
As to the Papa, I find it interesting that some SDA’s ever vigilant on seeing how the pope will combine with the US are suggesting some dark plot with Trump and RCC. Interesting Trump scolded papa for suggesting a barrier/wall is not needed.:grinning: PS. Telling the papa that secular issues are not for religious choosings. “WALL of Separation.”
Trump is attempting to construct the barrier…but we have Dems. and special interests in both parties in congress blocking every effort. He isn’t a king. I hope the proposals by border security in the next 18 days will move legislators to act. If not I hope an Executive order will be done and stand the courts.
Regards,
Pat


(C. Evans) #196

Patrick I just think a wall is ugly. I know I know the area is not Yellowstone park but it just gathers trash on both sides and is ugly. Here is the other thing, fine the living daylights out of businesses that hire illegals and jobs won’t be available. I had to prove citizenship to have my present job and I was happy the company made me.


(Patrick Travis) #197

C.,
It is easy to solve! The problem is no one is willing because special interest don’t want good immigration law and border security. SO, the pragmatic thing is get security and then force sound immigration law.
I worked in HK 7 yrs; And, had to have employer sponsorship. Special interest here dont want that and just pass off social cost to taxpayers. So, it isn’t a question of easy to solve but special interest/poltical/religious efforts NOT to solve!


(Dave Reynolds) #198

My reply says to cfowler, but it is really to all who have engaged in this conversation. My point was that we as Adventists, need to take our Christianity more seriously than our national alignment. Borders have always existed, walls have been created, and they have both always been successfully bypassed. Generally speaking those trying the hardest to bypass them, fall into one of two categories: 1. Very needy, unsafe where they are currently, legitimately need a change of location. 2. The criminals.

No matter how many walls you build you will not stop the criminals, because they will adjust their methodologies to meet existing circumstances. So what you end up doing, building walls, is keeping the truly needy out (not to mention the natural flow of wildlife that is essential to the ecology). The flow of wildlife, is far more important in my mind than the few criminals you might slow down.

The Adventist church is an international church, and we should as Christians be reaching out to and helping those in need, regardless of race, gender, religious affiliation, or any other form of identification we use to label people. So no I do not support a wall, but I recognize the right of a country to politically choose how it wants to manage the flow of people in and out of the Country. At the same time, I want us as Adventists to be at the front lines of advocating for the needy, recognizing their need, and avoiding getting hooked by the arguments about race, gender, religion, etc.

Love to all of you, even if we do not see eye to eye on this. God is love, as noted above, and any of us who is unloving, is showing a distinct lack of understanding God, and, when we are unloving, we are working against the advancement of the Kingdom of God.

Just my thoughts.


(Patrick Travis) #199

Dave,
Unloving is a subjective term. Some of us see “the rule of law” as love in the people’s best interest. Others may see compassion only as loving.
I see both as love.
Regards


#200

Indeed, many conflate their Christianity with Nationalism. On the Sea of Glass before the throne of God their will be none who view their brethren through Nationalistic pride


(James ) #201

JUST IN:

NEW YORK — A dozen immigrant workers at one of President Donald Trump’s golf clubs in New York who are in the U.S. illegally were fired this month even though managers knew about their legal status for years, a lawyer for the workers said Saturday. There is already a wall and the only wall we see is the depicted in this picture. He does not need a wall. Why? Read link for the details.



(Cfowler) #202

I agree. Sometimes (to me) it sounds as if people are wanting a free for all, as far as immigration is concerned, and that to want an immigration policy that has rules and regulations is somehow unChristian. I’m not necessarily for a wall per se, but there has to be some sort of regulation. Of course, criminals will find ways to break laws, as they do for all laws on the books, but there still has to be laws in place for immigration.


(C. Evans) #203

If you think in 18 days there will be ANY constructive immigration movement I got a bridge to sell you.


(Patrick Travis) #204

Dont disagree, part of the political showdown. That’s the problem. Pragmatically we need a secure border. Politically a conundrum. Executive order a possibility.


(George Tichy) #205

You see? A wall is not effective. Despite that wall, the Mexicans still get inside anyways… :roll_eyes:


(George Tichy) #206

The easiest thing is to dig a tunnel underneath any wall in the middle of nowhere, and voilá, one is in the US quickly.


(George Tichy) #207

The only thing that may happen in the next 18 days is Trump wanting to deliver the SOTU, and then, right away, shut down the government again over the medieval wall.
I hope Pelosi and Schumer won’t fall for this trick. I would propose: SOTU only after a firm agreement that he won’t shut down the Government over the stupid wall again. And still, with his record as a compulsive liar, I wouldn’t be surprised if he broke his word anyway. It’s part of who he is.


(George Tichy) #209

We better investigate who is going to build that wall. I wouldn’t be surprised if one of Trumps companies were involved.

“Nobody builds walls better than I,” remember???


(Ikswezdyr) #210

This is a heartfelt piece by someone who feels strongly on the issue. I feel badly for folks who live under corrupt governments. However, it is a very emotional piece at the expense of logic. I don’t think anyone on here likes to see suffering and to subtly accuse them of being nonChristian or uncaring for disagreeing on why the problem exists is to make matters worse and cause more division. It is not a new problem but gets attention because for the first time someone is trying to do something about it but being overwhelmed by the growing numbers as our country increases economically.

These are crime-driven countries. Whenever an elite leadership takes power and wealth for themselves, corruption happens–even when they call it socialism. The more people they can organize to come north, the more $ will get sent home. The US apparently has no power over the source of the problem. An oft-repeated example are the towns of Nogales–one in the US, the other in Mexico. Both are Hispanic. There is little crime on the US side, but the Mexican side is filled with crime, drugs and corrupt leaders. There are no easy answers and to be rational we can’t refuse to search for legitimate answers. The most vicious lie is to accuse Americans of being racists. I would rather live in a country of all black and brown tolerant caring persons than what we have now.

The president is a tactless and alienating personality but has continually changed on the kind of barrier and how much and stopped the child separation used in the past, but his opposition is stuck on the original wall concept.The statistics of drugs, criminals coming in is overwhelming. Since a barrier was voted for previously by the same people now against it tells any thinking person that they only want to get rid of Trump. That makes this a political matter and one in which a church should not be involved other than offering help to the people.
I too have lived near the border and my husband treated legal and illegal immigrants in a nonprofit setting. Just because people are poor does not mean they are all innocent or honest. I have close friends from El Salvador. They see the problem as economic and not as asylum and visit family 1-2 times a year without threat; but corruption is rampant and kids turn to crime in the cities. (Farming should be an alternative.)
It is a human crisis. It’s common to find bodies in the desert. People turn their kids over to coyotes who claim they are family. I personally know a man who paid $9000 to get back here ($6000 the first time until he committed a crime and was deported.) Human trafficking is big business. Why are so many in denial? I keep hearing about families making the trip; yet videos show a majority being young men. That I don’t understand. Why don’t our citizens have real news on the crisis and unbiased investigation? . I would rather quicker and more vetted legal immigration from these needy places.


(Patrick Travis) #211

But George, who’s lying? Pelosi said couldn’t give while government shut down. Is it shut down? Let’s just not have any more sotu addresses when the opposing party controls the house and the other party wants to limit free speech. Wonderful way to go, huh?

Pelosi means , dont want you to give till you do it our way.

Let’s not have any walls or laws! After all some will “break them” anyway!


(Patrick Travis) #212

This is how Dems. today look at free speech. They say they are for it but amazed there are other ideas! Therefore others MUST be racist, misogynist, imperialist etc., etc. deplorables that must not be allowed to speak. Confront & stop.
Alas, destruction of free speech by the new “moral” haughty radical grandeous superior.