AdventNetwork of Southern Africa Issues Statement After Annual Council Compliance Vote


(George Tichy) #101

And I ask for another one, please @BroDenny:

Can you kindly give a text from the Bible that clearly and explicitly states that men should be ordained when they choose to become pastors?


(Denny) #102

Its like asking for a verse that also says children or babies cannot be ordained to the ministry…We cannot work from such a logic as there is no logic to that. We work from an affirmative and precedent set forth by the Word…What example practice or teaching has been left for us. That is our departure point.


#103

and he just answered with a no…


(Denny) #104

The beauty of all our conversations is that they are in writing…The readers will scroll up and see who posted condescending statements to the other. SImple. I wont entertain your desire to get into a direct dialogue…Because i joined recently does not make one a troll… To you a troll is one who does not accept your point of view…In George’s words, i believe that is a discriminator.;).

In short… You are more concerned with attacking me than attacking the topic unlike @Red: and @GeorgeTichy who at least are posting real points to this issue. Please learn from them at least.


(Red Livingstone) #105

The same “Working Policy”, the SDA Church Manual covers this question. And actually the current compliance documents are not necessary because discipline is also covered by the current SDA Church Manual.

In the same section that I quoted, it states that “the definition of denominational beliefs is entrusted to the General Conference in Session.” That sentence comes right after the sentence about decisions that are entrusted to the Union Conference/Missions.

What exactly are the SDA “denominational beliefs”? Are we talking about the 27… now …28 Fundamental Beliefs? Are we talking about all the areas like the wearing of jewelry or not eating meat or not using a guitar in church service? I propose that it is talking about what is outlined in other areas of the same manual.

Women’s ordination is not approved or disapproved in the manual. It is not a new concept. I could do research and let you know when the issue first came up in the church, but it is not of interest to me at this moment. I do know that when I was a teenager, it was brought up every year at the GC Annual Council when it was held at my home church, the Takoma Park SDA Church.

I do know that after a significant amount of money, a significant amount of time and a significant representation of all of the SDA scholars, the Theology of Ordination Study Committee (also known as TOSC) produced a report: https://www.adventistarchives.org/final-tosc-report.pdf

After you read that, share with me what your analysis of their conclusion with relationship to what should be our “belief”.


(George Tichy) #106

Great.I feel that you gave an honest and clear answer.

Now, have you listened to Dr. Darius Jankiewicz’s presentation on the history of the ordination process in the Christian Church, how/when it started?
____ YES … … ____ NO

If no, would you watch it? Dr Jankiewicz is a professor at Andrew University, so the material must be reliable. Here is a link, you have 3 choices:

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1CAACAR_enUS754US754&ei=U8XRW721E5DfzwLkq5CYCQ&q=janckiewicz+video+ordination&oq=janckiewicz+video+ordination&gs_l=psy-ab.12...20679.20679..23662...0.0..0.127.127.0j1…0…1…gws-wiz.oboj4ILDv1w


(Denny) #107

I partly agree with you there…But you see again the problem has come in that unions are claiming independence to ordain who they please… This has not been accepted by the world church till now and according to the same document you posted about the working policy it mentions that Unions can be disciplined…
B 95 15 Dissolution and/or Expulsion of Unions/Unions of Churches—
If, in the opinion of a division administration, a union/union of churches
appears to be in apostasy or rebellion, and the procedures outlined in B 95 05
Organization & Administration SID Working Policy, 2015-2016
85
have been followed, but have proved unsuccessful, the following steps shall be
taken…

So can unions (divisions as well) do as they please on any subject matter? What happens then to the uniqueness and distinction of the SDA family and church on fundamental issues…rather than surface issues about guitars and pianos in church worship etc. Because remember we are also a church that works with precedent, so whatever is established will either make or break us in future.


(Denny) #108

I have not watched him in particular…But am downloading it as we speak. Thanks.


(Red Livingstone) #109

If our Unions, Conferences, local churches… actually the constituencies of those levels of organization …are not representational of the the Fundamental Beliefs, then we have a problem. Currently, our Unions, Conferences and local churches that consider women’s ordination are not “out of line” with our Fundamental Beliefs. Actually, I suggest that they are more in line with the Spirit of our SDA beliefs.

Until you read the TOSC report that I gave you a link for, discussing women’s ordination is a waste of my time… and probably, respectfully, yours.


(George Tichy) #110

Denny,

  1. The Unions have, historically in our Church, been in charge of all ordination issues. I haven’t seen any Union claiming any "independence to ordain. Have you? What I have seen is Unions doing what they always did, and it was assigned to them.
  2. As far as I am concerned, the world church never rejected or voted on the Unions’ right of making decisions on ordination. Never. This vote at the AC was the best way TW found to literally graft something to the current policies that would give him power to start messing up with the Unions, thus disturbing the currently established order of authority in the Church.

Apparently Ted Wilson is extremely obsessed with his views on WO and he has an urge to impose them to the Church. He is destroying many women’s ministry and forcing closing the door to many other women who feel a call from God. Just for this reason he is not fit for the job. He needs to either be impeached now, or voted out in 2020.


(George Tichy) #111

Thanks for your honest and frank answer. And, just showing interest in it (downloading) tells us that your attitude is like the Bereans’. Look into it, consider it with an open mind, them make your mind the way you feel best.


(Denny) #112

I have read its excerpts from other sites etc… Maybe you can post the summarative conclusions regarding their report. But what i gather from the way forward is that women IN ministry is not an issue…and i agree with that. They also recommend to maintain ordination for men…Am i correct?


(Red Livingstone) #113

Don’t make me do all the work here! Let me be clear. I have stated it before and I will state it again. I believe that Women’s Ordination certainly is in the Spirit of God’s Character. But you should come to that conclusion by your own study and prayer. Do not “trust” my values. You have not broken bread with me… yet. I look forward to the day when we can break bread together!

The TOSC report presented 3 Position Summaries and 3 Way Forward suggestions. After 126 pages, this is what is on the 127th page:

VOTED, TO AFFIRM THAT IN SPITE OF THE DIFFERENCES OF OPINION ON THE SUBJECT OF WOMEN’S ORDINATION, THE MEMBERS OF THE THEOLOGY OF ORDINATION STUDY COMMITTEE ARE COMMITTED TO THE MESSAGE AND THE MISSION OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH, AS EXPRESSED THROUGH THE 28 FUNDAMENTAL BELIEFS.

So, I take this as their conclusion. I agree that the MESSAGE and the MISSION is what we need to commit to.

If all these scholars can not come to a consensus and that their diligent and extensive study on the subject of Women’s ordination has not produced a defining answer, it is OK that you and I have a differing opinion. (We match the TOSC results and we didn’t cost the church a widow’s mite!)

And it does not change the policy that “decisions regarding the ordination of ministers is entrusted to the union conference/mission;”. So if in your geographical area, the constituency of the Union Conference chooses not to ordain women, that is not out of policy. If in my geographical area, the Union constituency chooses to ordain women, that is not out of policy.


(George Tichy) #114

No wonder Ted Wilson quickly got rid of the $1 mil+ TOSC report!!! It didn’t meet his needs. He needed something else that would allow him to impose his personal beliefs on the Church, aka “we the bozos”… He finally got something at the AC18, so now he can “lead” and Make The SDAC Great Again:roll_eyes: :innocent:


(Tony Griffith) #115

(1) …Give me your text first …
So you are admitting that there is no such text, eh.

(2)… since you say “me” and my “camp” are discriminators…

So now you are placing me in a ‘camp’ and bearing false witness against me? I (worker4X)NEVER mentioned the word ‘discrimination’ or ‘discriminator’ in any of my posts. So unfortunate for an SDA brother!!


(Robert Lindbeck) #116

Thank you @BroDenny for outlining a classic case of discrimination. Yes, there are certain criteria that the Unions must work within deciding who can and can’t be ordained. Let us consider this example - two candidates for ordination, both went to seminary, graduated the same year. Both have done internships at local churches, both effective preachers. Both meet the criteria for ministry. One meets the criteria for ordination, one does not (and never can). This is discrimination - where criteria is written against intrinsic properties.

In society, it is technically possible for a female minister to be the “husband” of one wife, but the church discriminates in that area also.


(Robert Lindbeck) #117

Perhaps @GeorgeTichy, the question should be more specific…
@BroDenny a biblical text that says/affirms/proves that ordination has a lifetime warranty, not just for a specific task.
There are plenty of examples of “laying on of hands” which our brother will equate to ordination but they were not life time appointments as the Adventist church, the Catholic church and most other christian churchs affirm today. Perhaps we should take a leaf from the buddhist book on “ordination”. Their monks come and go from the “clergy” as the “spirit” moves them.


#118

Yes, indeed. Thank you for pointing this out.

This is clearly a “red herring” fallacy. Another issue introduced to distract from the actual question about adults–men and women–being ordained to the Gospel ministry. To throw children and babies into the mix is a red herring.


(George Tichy) #119

Hi Denny,
Just curious,
Have you been here at Spectrum in the past under a different name?
Just curious.
Thanks.


#120

Tony, Based on analysis of this commentators style of discourse he will not answer direct questions. I also don’t recall a case where a request for factual information such as a text is every provide by him. Unfortunately his opinion and level of thinking is the only one that matters and is above reproof.