An Interjection


(George Tichy) #21

Exactly. And it is obvious how it affects the GC people. When spiritual arrogance hits the fan, RUN!!!


(Thomas J Zwemer) #22

I went to a junior camp under Dr Heppenstall. I am fond of his two books — The Man Who is God and Our High Priest, both out of print but Herbie Douglass Book Why Jesus Waits remains in press. The tells the whole story of the GC View. What an ego driven heresy. The one Biblical passage tells the entire story. Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not from the seed of fallen man. God in the flesh of Mary fulfilled the Everlasting Covenant to give us the Everlasting Good News, Saved by the Grace of God. Amen.


(Johnny Carson) #23

This is a bit off topic but actually, there is documentation within the Vatican Archives that indicate the clergy sexual abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church in not a recent phenomenon. Records found that the church fathers were grappling with the issue as far back as the year 600, give or take a few decades. The issue was known, discussed at the highest levels of the church, plans implemented to curb it, covered up, lather, rinse, repeat, throughout the history of the church from then until today. For a very short time (the time it took the airlines to permanently lose my luggage on my return from the 2010 MaleSurvivor Conference on Sexual Abuse held at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in NYC) I had copies of the original documentation from Vatican Archives, and their English translations, in my possession.


(Leroy Gillan) #24

Great article. You ask, "What should/could laypeople do to avert organizational catholization? Has the GC forgotten where the money comes from that they are wastefully using?
The vote being taken at Annual Council 2018 is not really voting for or against the said proposal. In reality it is a vote to RATIFY what has already been decided.


(Mark Cady, MD) #25

I simply wonder this, “just what is the Holy Spirit saying to each of us today?” And, “who is actually listening?”

An opinion fest is just that (little more than much of this). Who will carry out His will, and how will that work?

I am praying, studying the Word, talking to believers and moreover listening to His voice. Won’t you do so too?


(George Tichy) #26

That’s the way those people at the GC are used to operate. Look, for example, at the process of electing a GC President. Have you ever seen a bigger joke than that? Why to have those delegates there from all around the world if they cannot actually vote on anything? And what kind of election is that in which there is only ONE candidate who has already been chosen by a small group?


#27

The LDS Church has its TR (Temple Recommend) for all faithful practicing Mormons as established after an in depth interview intended to verify compliance. Any ideas on what the Adventist Church might in a similar manner set up to achieve unity?


(Kim Green) #28

Mark, are you asking questions or simply posting comments?


(Kim Green) #29

They could follow the LDS model but they tend to like to believe that they have their own special and original “methods”. :slight_smile:

But on a very slightly more serious note…they did “tighten” up on the baptismal vows some time back…but they would have to go back to some of us older people who did not agree to an extra 10 or more FBs to make sure we agree in a retroactive fashion.

Of course, Adventists do love their committees. All churches could have a special “Compliance Committee” with a special regional “Compliance Officer” to enforce things. Just some simple suggestions. :smiley:


(George Tichy) #30

Will they be given special uniforms?


(Mark Cady, MD) #31

Questions often make for me more meaningful comments. My questions are not simply rhetorical. They are focused at me, at you, at each of us.

I find this forum to often be a breath of fresh air. As such, I am drawn to dialogue linked to solutions. And it seems that solutions to the problems we ponder are founded not in opinion, grievance and celebration of cherished resentments, but in the unmistakable and relentless prompting and sacred anguish of the Holy Spirit.

In our endeavor to tease out the “truth” we are obligated to lavish His grace at every turn. This means not only amongst and upon ourselves, but upon the counterpoint as well. Seems that is just what Jesus did. Time and again.

And this business of grace in action comes by not just “hearing” (His Word(s)) but as well by “doing” (His will).

The questions (comments) that surface for me time and again are not complicated, yet they speak to and from my heart. They sound look like this:

  1. What/who are my idols?
  2. Who/what do I worship?
  3. What is it I am doing best (that I love most)?
  4. Who/what am I listening to?
  5. Whom do I follow, where am I being led?
  6. To whom and what do I surrender, and why?

I am wise to recall:

  1. Truth (God, not-God).
  2. Grace (priceless, free, both mandate and mission)
  3. Love (not just a verb, not an option, more than just a holy paradigm).

(Kim Green) #32

Yes…those are “special” all right. :slight_smile:


(Kim Green) #33

Thank-you for your explanations and you have some great questions.

Often what is one person’s “truth/solution/prompting of the SS” is not another’s. Hence, there is a lot of diversity of opinions (and arguments) upon what is exactly the “truth/solution/prompting of the SS”. It is somewhat amazing that one God could be giving so many people so many different “promptings”. :slight_smile: But God works through the human vessel to reveal His “truth” and we know how utterly human we are in the execution of this.


(Mark Cady, MD) #34

Thanks for your reply. I agree that God speaks to each in ways that are often unique. Though I find that God’s message does not often vary. We find ourselves often amidst a sea of “thus saith’s the Lord”, and are faced with a quandary of the right path to choose.

I think that finding God’s plan amidst a sea of choices and opinion is much like finding God himself amidst the noise of daily life. With faith, intention, surrender, worship, grace and love we will surely find His way amidst the current pickle of church related issues.

If we divine to elevate His principles above our personalities, we as a people and as a church cannot fail to be led straight home and one day find each other united at last, at peace in the kingdom.


(Mark Cady, MD) #35

Thanks for your reply. I agree that God speaks to each in ways that are often unique. Though I find that God’s message does not often vary. We find ourselves often amidst a sea of “thus saith’s the Lord”, and are faced with a quandary of the right path to choose.

I think that finding God’s plan amidst a sea of choices and opinion is much like finding God himself amidst the noise of daily life. With faith, intention, surrender, worship, grace and love we will surely find His way amidst the current pickle of church related issues.

If we divine to elevate His principles above our personalities, we as a people and as a church cannot fail to be led straight home and one day find each other united at last, at peace in the kingdom.


(Kim Green) #36

I have complete faith that God can and will guide us individually…however, I am not sure that it is possible for the SDA church at this time. I do not have the confidence that the church is being led by those who have placed God’s will above their own personal theological agendas. So, we can agree that “personalities” may easily be above “His principles”. I don’t believe that Adventism will escape schism unless the ship is steered away from the reefs. It may be too late for a peaceful resolution.


(Mark Cady, MD) #37

Your thoughts ring true. If our faith is in Him, we cannot fail. We have seen His Providence work (well) through the ages. As such, “well” may not be all sweetness and light. I recall Eden, Abraham, Joseph, Jericho, Sodom, Paul, Judas, Ruth, David, Noah and Samson and Isreal.

Yet God’s Providence will prevail. This is certain. Infact, the “reef” of which you speak may indeed be exactly what He has in mind to effect our brokenness and from that wreckage build in each of us His true church. Where one day we may experience together prayer and praise at the feet of the very One whose holy, providential, very personal, glorious and oh so violent love mended our brokenness and raised us up to finally be so much more just like Him.

He will do this in us as His believers. But only if we allow. Should we shun His desire to be our lover and friend, he will carry His message to another. We Adventist’s can’t possibly forever cordon off the corner on the market of grace.

I say let the church split, shift or dissolve. God is in control. We cannot, should not and best not fight one another to rewrite history as it unfolds. God is the only absolute truth we can approximate. I am betting on Him. If we listen, He will show the way.

What else can we do? Love (our enemies), pray (for those who spitefully use us), be conduits of grace to all and finally “stand for the right though the heavens fall”.


(Cfowler) #38

Don’t worry…you haven’t. :wink:

Christians experience God’s grace everyday all over the world, and have for millenniums.


(Johnny Carson) #39

I’d go so far as to express the heresy that even non Christians allover the world experience God’s grace everyday.


(Cfowler) #40

I don’t disagree with that, John!