Are Other Worlds Watching Us? Ellen White and Earthly Evil

[Lindy (Lynden Williams)]

@kjames

But as to the length of the POE, I am not sure there is any satisfactory answer save “God is not willing that any perish” and for one sinner that repents bringing great joy in God. There is much more we can’t fathom than what we can.

I agree and I have felt that God is much more gracious than we think. I think that if he can save a thief who hung next to him as He was carrying the burden of all of our sins, that He is going to go a lot farther to save us from this earthly disaster than we think. Otherwise, to be subjected to something we never asked for, and then expect us to be almost superhuman like the apostle Paul, in order to make it into heaven, is simply not fare. If the thief only had to admit that he deserved his punishment and at the same time told Jesus to remember him (which was indirectly saying he “believed” in Him), then I think God has equalized the uneven playing field and He has made it more than fare.

My point has always ended with “I think God is much more gracious than what we Adventists try to proclaim”, And for me, I grew up in the SDA era when your guardian angel didn’t go into the theatre with you and you couldn’t wade in the water on Sabbath above your knees. You know, the really stupid stuff.

[Andrewteaher (Andrew Hazel)]

@Yoyito

Last point, God punishing a sinner is not cruel, He punished His Son to spare us all punishment, so those who reject that solution are choosing to suffer rather then accept Jesus’ forgiveness.

This thing about ‘punishment’ has always grated with the God I hope and believe exists. Historically and through interpretation and translation of the available ancient texts we come to selected library we call the Bible. It’s difficult, if not impossible, to read some of the accounts of what reads as wholesale genocide without wondering if this is the kind of God that runs things, who sees but does not or cannot intervene. The logic is that either God sees but decides not to intervene (which makes Him heartless) or sees but is unable to intervene (which makes Him powerless). That’s the problem with logic. If, however God is Love, definitively, then He operates on a level higher than we can get our heads around and we only get glimpses into His ‘purpose’. When Moses asked to see God, God told him you wouldn’t be able to cope with the encounter, so mercifully Moses gets to see the shadowy ‘back’ of God and hears a self proclamation of the godly balance of justice, judgement and mercy which seems weighted on the side of mercy. As a consequence this partial insight we see Moses able to obey God completely, even to the point that he gets left out on the doorstep Canaan. Doesn’t seem fair. But it seems that Moses gets God. Fast forward a few centuries and Moses - now apparently coming down from the presence of the God who he couldn’t previously even look at, to miraculously be present at the transfiguration of Jesus (apparently giving him a spiritual pep talk before the challenge of crucifixion). Who knew. Would Moses with heavenly hindsight, change his life experiences?
The other thing that helps me is that if God is, as afar our experience of Him goes, firstly the Creator then a good look at nature and the rules by which nature operates should gives us a less biased view on which to consider the nature (sic) of God. So before all the stuff turns up it seems God creates/puts in place some heavenly physics - the full spectrum of light as a start off and then useful stuff like gravitational forces and the things we call ‘natural laws’, the ones no one really has a problem with. No one argues for the injustice of gravity or the cycle where trees ‘breath’ in the stuff we breathe out and vice versa. It’s good science, and if its God-made it reveals a ‘good’ God who understands that messing with the science never works for the good of anything or anyone.
The big bible narrative asks us to consider who or what messed up this good system. One plot line s that Lucifer is not happy with his place in this big picture and goes about trying to do his own thing. Now, because God operates on this system of ‘good’ He cannot change (I am God I change not) his own rules which are supposed to be perfect; any change would be a clear admission that He is not perfect. (Ludifer’s argument). So, like gravity, things have to play out - if we jump of the cliff we, as a consequence of the perfect law of gravity, must fall - its not a punishment. To save the occasional cliff-leaper as a display of gods power would be unfair to the others, dead at the bottom of the precipice o and suggest that God is not as fair as He claims.
So, if this sin thing is as destructive and unreasonable and illogical .as only God cold really see, does He nip it in the bud and refuse to answer any subsequent questions or doubts from the other angels who might wonder where that naughty Lucifer has got to just for speaking up? (sounds like the thin wedge of Stalinism) or does He let it all play out, warts and all, so that at the ‘end’ the big reveal to anyone who has questions about the way ?God does His thing, is that everyone (even those who die as a consequence not a a punishment) agrees that God was being fair all the time. Case closed.

[eborg (Eugene Borg)]

I suffered from Dark Depression from 1984 to 2009, and I had a huge problem trying to believe our Creator God has my best interests in mind.

I was sexually molested by older kids when I was 6 years old, and because the genetic sin of my addicted ancestors had been passed down to me, I became obsessed with the nude female body at that very young age. As I became older, my teenage hormones kicked in and I became obsessed with the idea of sex. However, since I was an Adventist, I was forbidden by God to have sex with a woman, so I was greatly relieved when I got married in 1974.

Now that I was married, I had God’s permission to have all the sex I wanted! The great problem for me was my First Wife whom I married in 1974 had a normal sexual drive, whereas I was on turbo charge in my ongoing hunger for daily sex. This huge disconnect in our vastly different sex drives meant I was always frustrated that I wasn’t getting the daily sex I hungered for.

I had a lot of cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile a God who supposedly had my best interests in mind, and yet the Bible only gave me one approved way to satisfy my constant sexual hunger, and that was to be married to one woman. So I got married in 1974, only to discover to my great distress that my First Wife had a smaller, more normal sex drive, which felt to me like I was a turbocharged race car and she was just a small Gokart track.

It felt to me that God was cruel, just out there in the vastness of space, enjoying my constant sexual frustrations. Because I want to go to Heaven, I felt I had no choice but to continually be stuck with this “difficult to love” God of the Bible.

Then in October 2008 my First Wife suddenly divorced me, and I was left in a place of panic and shock, because I had to take on an extra $800 in expenses. She had been my everything, and yet after 34 years of marriage she was suddenly gone, with no interest in being reconciled me. All I could do was put the divorce papers on our bedroom floor and beg God to get me through this soul shaking divorce.

And to my great amazement, I personally saw “God step out of the shadows” and He/She became very real to me. It was my great relief that this invisible God was getting me safely through this marriage crisis and he/she led me to a second wife who has been my absolute delight.

As I searched for a second wife to love, I had a problem. Because I was still suffering from Depression in 2008, my good friend Terry Reibstein told me I had to get that frown off my face, because no woman was going to love an always frowning man.

So I had to find a way to smile again, so one of the first things I did was go see a Psychiatrist who prescribed Prozac for me, which has greatly put me on the happier side of life.

Second, I desperately asked God for help, so the second thing my Creator did was lead me to read online Near Death Experiences (NDE). I read hundreds of them, and from these astonishing stories I fell in love with my Creator God again.

From those NDEs, I learned these truths:

1- The love our Creator God has for each of us is a MILLION TIMES GREATER than anything you have ever felt on Earth.

2- Life is supposed to be hard, because we are trying to learn Unconditional Love, which we do by being jostled around by unpleasant and selfish people all around us.

3. We are very well Taken Care Of by the spirit realm of the Holy Spirit that lives inside all those who have accepted Jesus’ freely offered gift of eternal salvation, and we all have guardian angels assigned to us believers to keep us safe from most of the great harms of life on our badly broken planet.

4. If God is cruel, then where did all the good things come from?

5. I am 69 years old, and I have learned my life WITH GOD is far better than without God.

[robertleo (Robert Rouillard)]

Ellen also added to the view of other worlds, “I begged of my attending angel to let me remain in that place. I could not bear the thought of coming back to this dark world again.”
I don’ remember reading that she indicated that people on the other worlds were able to view the activities of this planet.
What would she have written in present time under inspiration to what the article mentions about the abuse of children? Often she wondered, why God?
The prince and power is working overtime and the trumpet is soon to sound and every eye will see Him.

[Lindy (Lynden Williams)]

@Sirje

God is not going leave out anybody from the chance of whatever life He has planned for our future. He is not waiting for some Adventist to perfectly keep the commandments and then reign fire and brimstone on the rest. That would be a narcissistic monster, making the gospel of Christ null and void.

If anyone on this site thinks that the “remanent” are somehow in their own strength going to live sinlessly before the end comes, you are delusional. That is a concept that makes absolutely no sense. The only way we are saved is through grace. Paul makes it perfectly clear. If humans were capable of living sinlessly, it would negate the need for the cross.

[ABEN (Christopher)]

@spectrumbot

a seemingly innocuous extra-biblical

When the extra-biblical is passed on as inspired, as she did, it is sure sign of a false teacher and God is not pleased with these additions to his word

@spectrumbot

She states that there are other unfallen worlds and beings or “intelligences” and “holy angels” watching us. In fact, she was once given a guided tour to one such place and marveled at what she saw:

This and many other such mentioned in this article are fantastic myths she copied from the notions existed centuries before her. They are silly enough to be discredited. Unfortunately, Our church was founded uopn these things!

[ABEN (Christopher)]

There are numerous places where this statement can be located. This was one of her favorite themes, though not Biblical

[Pierrepaul (Pierre-Paul Legault)]

@Lindy

If humans were capable of living sinlessly, it would negate the need for the cross.

As a lad growing up in the church, I was taught (a) that we could live sinlessly and (b) Jesus lived sinlessly without any special powers, and if he could do it so could we.

Never mind that in the history of humanity there have been an estimated 100 billion humans who have lived, and we have not observed a single one who was “perfect”. It’s a little like the theoretical speculation that according to quantum mechanics, a broken coffee mug could reassemble itself - the fact is that this never happens and the odds of it ever happening would be almost as close to zero as possible. For all intents and purposes we say that a broken coffee mug cannot reassemble itself. So it is with the theoretical sinless human. Perhaps it is possible for a human to be sinless for one minute; in theory I suppose such human could be sinless again for another minute, and I suppose he could repeat that again and again. (similarly a NFL quarterback can complete a pass, he has that ability - so in theory a QB could play an entire season with a 100% completion percentage - never mind that it has never been done).

So let’s get back to our theoretical perfect human - a human “can” be sinless, it’s just that the odds are so infinitesimally small that in over 100,000 years of human existence and over 100 billion souls, it has never been done, and likely never will be done.

So what is the point of asserting that sinlessness is possible if it is never done. One might as well assert that a MLB batter should have an on-base-percentage of 1.000, or a pro golfer should get a hole-in-one on every par three, eagle every par 4 and score the albatross on every par 5.

SDAism has come up with some awfully silly assertions over the years, but the LGT and “character perfection” theories are among the most absurd.

[NY_G_PA2 (Bruce Clements)]

I’m goin’ with Norman Greenbaum’s “Spirit InThe Sky” lyrics on this one:

“Never been a sinner, I’ve never sinned
I’ve got a friend in Jesus”

IOW, once a person is forgiven-or if our maker never really believed there was such a thing as original sin-it’s as if that person never sinned and had led an absolutely perfect life.

(However, and as was pointed out in “Oh Brother Where Art Thou”, this newfound spotlessness probably won’t impress any earthly judge and is unlikely to hold up in court!)

How does this perfection play into LGT and the second coming?

Well, 2,000 years later, I’m still hearing crickets and am starting to think that the whole “rapture” concept might have been a misunderstanding!?!?

But its still too soon to say “soon enough” and joke about it, right?

Right?!?!

[alexandergreig (Alexander Josef Greig)]

When you use the phrase “different perspectives,” I begin to agree with you. Our enlarging knowledge of anything depends on looking at things from different perspectives. That involves imagination. Water appears different when immersed in it than it does from the surface. Humans invented reason, and are both blessed and suffer by it. God appears trustworthy, but often seems to be a trickster, a practical joker. We are capable of imagining many things about everything. Imagination is responsible for the invention of the devil; for the persona of God, and Jesus as God. We look at things from different perspectives. Like a mathematical equation, as I understand it, if one comes to a final conclusion, one has laid question to the entire grounding of numbers for an idea of reality. What we are left with, not to be disrespectful, is the creation of the “better story,” and that provides the metaphoric mapping for our artistic-religious living in the inscrutable natural world–what we are in the habit of calling ethics, which is not the result of a processing of laws, but of enablement of new understandings.

[Lindy (Lynden Williams)]

@Pierrepaul

It’s a little like the theoretical speculation that according to quantum mechanics, a broken coffee mug could reassemble itself - the fact is that this never happens and the odds of it ever happening would be almost as close to zero as possible.

I love the fact you’re talking about a coffee mug. Some Adventists would say that mug contained a liquid that if consumed would be considered a sin. Your hypothesis is spot on, but your analogy got me to chuckling.

Of course, there will be no coffee drinkers in heaven…(sic)