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I like the way that @drdrjcc puts it: I expect that the conferences which resulted from American Adventist apartheid will remain as “a public eyesore” until Christ returns.
I see this unifying call as similar to the one for healing that Paul made, only to be met with God’s retort: “My grace is sufficient for thee.” (2 Corinthians 12:9, KJV) The healing did not come, and, in this case, it won’t, either, because racism is a seductive and, thus, permanent part of white culture.
That “Black Protestant sermons are four times as long as those in US Catholic churches,” as The Guardian dryly noted, recently, is not even really the major obstacle. The major obstacle is that, if so-called state conferences wanted unity, and the regional conferences said, “Great! Dissolve your corporations. Then you, your members, and your property come into ours,” those white church members, like the rich young ruler, would go away sorrowful, for they have great possessions. (Matt. 19:22)
Finally, @DarrelL, you are correct: The “pervasive and insidious generational overlaying that fuels…implicit biases,” and of which @drdrjcc spoke, belong to every and any people group of any and every color.
However, it is only among white people that these tools are wielded by the power of white supremacy. Because racism dominates all relations between people, in the hands of racists, these cognitions acquire a surgical cutting edge.
I should clarify that I am not questioning the “white Supremacy” exists. Just like anti Semitism and a thousand other stupid people or groups who have sick beliefs.
But what are we talking about exactly? Are you talking about “Institutional Racism,” if that still exists somewhere please let me know I will come and support you in whatever way I can. But please don’t talk to me about “mico aggressions” “subliminal” whatever.
I have promoted integrating all the conferences in our region and no one on either side seems to want that because of cultural differences relating to worship style and so on. I think the white churches need our black brothers and sisters because they might revive some of our lethargy.
(1) The direct or indirect subjugation of all “non-white” people by white people, for the basic purpose of “pleasing” and/or serving any or all “white” persons, at all times, in all places, in all areas of activity, including Economics, Education, Entertainment, Labor, Law, Politics, Religion, Sex, and War.
(2) The only functional Racism, in existence, among the people of the known universe, that is based on “color” and/or “anti-color” in the physical make-up or physical appearance of persons.
(3) Racism “for the sake of” Racism.
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I live where white people dominate: Throughout the known universe.
I hold that white supremacy (racism) dominates relations between people throughout the known universe. So, of course, anything, that dominates, exists.
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I agree that the White Supremacists have “sick beliefs.” But I am not talking about “anti Semitism,” or anything else, here.
Quite some years ago a White Evangelist was telling our white
group the difference between
White congregations
Black congregations
This has to do when the congregation REALLY gets into what
the speaker is saying and paying attention.
He reported –
White congregations get Really Quiet.
A lot of Black Entertainers got their start in church. Singing in
the choir or groups. Playing the piano [Little Richard an SDA],
or another instrument.
Jazz is a black musical venue. Can be either on Stage or in Church.
Depending on the words.
Black congregations get “noisy” with verbal cues of “AMEN Brother”
“Preach It!” and ETC.
It can really “bug” a black preacher in a white congregation because
they respond Emotionally with Extreme Quiet.
In his response, what do you see “Black brothers and sisters” getting out of the prescribed arrangement?
Like, what’s noted there, in the text, that I missed, beyond the experience of reviving white people out of their lethargy? What else did he say is in it for us?
well, assuming darrel is correct, that white churches are lethargic, and blacks hold the answer, what blacks would get out of providing that answer is the satisfaction that they fixed something that was broken…
but personally, i don’t think darrel is quite correct…in my view, black churches are as lethargic as white churches…the main difference i see is that black churches operate on a much more intense, overt level of emotionality…but emotionality and spirituality aren’t synonymous…i actually think emotionality can effectively hide spiritual deficiency…the reality is that whites aren’t genetically programmed for the type of emotional effusiveness that comes naturally for many blacks, and so trying to bring more emotionality into white churches runs the risk of being a turn-off…
there isn’t anything else that you’ve missed…
but keep in mind that darrel was originally responding to drdrjcc’s characterization that white racism is essentially hopeless…i think darrel is spelling out where he thinks blacks can help whites, rather than the other way round, because he isn’t sensing, at all, that drdrjcc is open to the notion that whites have anything to offer blacks…because of this closed position articulated by drdrjcc, darrel is prevented from offering a more balanced picture…he can only talk about what an apparently aggrieved person on the receiving end of racism is able to hear…
I don’t think that the racism issue is as detrimental and problematic, and neither is the issue of sexism.
The most problematic issue that structures all of these is the issue of “agism”, since the newer generations who can approach the world with a new paradigm in mind don’t have much access to modify the existing structure to correct the self-perpetuating problems of the past.
So, the dominant paradigm of power in the church is with 50++ year olds who are very reluctant to share it.
look around…70+ yr-olds are running the house, the senate and the white house…three of the leading dems with any kind of shot for the nomination are practically 80…
assuming good health, which is likely in the case of people who have followed egw their whole life, which includes many adventists who aspire to work for the church, there are advantages in advancing age…these include settled finances, beliefs, and family lives…older people are less likely to veer from principles they believe in as a response to outward pressures…and guess what…god thought the same thing thousands of yrs ago when he chose moses and his older brother aaron to lead millions of slaves out of egypt…
younger people just have to bide their time…it’s isn’t as if the people in power now were in power when they were young…they also bided their time…
being young is a special, wonderful time: it’s the time to prepare and improve, without saddling any responsibility for failure…the last thing we need is for the church to be run by a bunch of 25 yr-olds who barely know what side is up, and what side is down; who have limited or no equity; who may barely understand where they want to go in terms of any kind of family; and who really don’t know what they believe on a non-negotiable level…some of these young people may very well have leadership talent, but why rush things…they should perfect their gift while they have the opportunity to do so, and in the context of the wisdom that general living brings…their time will come soon enough…
Are you pointing to the cultural status quo as the norm I should accept ?
Don’t get me wrong, I respect the experience and age. Being old is not the problem of itself. I hope you can see that’s not what I’m addressing. The problem is that the 60-70-80 generation grew up in rather inflexible era, and the new generation of 20-30-40s re-invented the world in the past 30 years. Hence, it’s a world they understand. A world with different sets of rules that the previous generation doesn’t get.
They are not going to do that. They will leave, which they already done so, and they will not be back because the cultural context gives them more opportunity to express their talents in environment that’s more interactive and collaborative.
These 25 year olds invented the very platform that you are communicating these things on now :). It’s a different world with different rules, where one can develop as fast as they want with information to do that on the palm of their hands. Sure, life experience matters, but there’s a whole scope of the “life experience” of the older generations, which is utterly irrelevant today. They are still living in “radio world” where the future is interactive. And that’s how the church is structured… as a radio you sing along with, and not interactive entity you can contribute in structuring.
Older generation in charge today doesn’t generally get that. There are always good exceptions, but these are few in number.
“Arkdrey” –
Wonderful insight between how different Generations grew up and HOW
each Generation interacts with the world around them.
As I interact with the older group of my age, I find them pretty much
intolerant of “Change”.
{{I find them tiring and wearysome at times. I much prefer the present
culture, and the Generation who are enjoying it. I guess I have always
been “adventurous” and so enjoy those types of persons.}}
Having the “old days” reactions to things. And I believe we see this SAME
intolerance in the older persons who are on Church Committees at various
levels. From the Local church through the World Church Divisions and
the General Conference.
There are MANY Issues one will NOT FIND in the Index To Ellen White’s
Writings because she wrote in context of 1800’s and ONLY ONE DECADE
after that. I won’t go into HOW life was lived during those times, but NOT
like ours!!!
i’m just saying that older people running our church isn’t out of step with what we see all around us…
perfect…we’re in agreement…
i think you’re over-stating the case…every younger generation believes they’re being stifled, and that they, and only they, have the answers to the problems they see around them…nothing’s new under the sun…didn’t we just see an article here on Spectrum about rehoboam listening to younger instead of older councillors…how did that work out for him…
i can tell you that when i was 20, i truly believed i knew more than my parents and all my teachers combined…this is one reason i left the church as a young adult…it’s only after i’d lived in the world outside the church for a time that i began to see that there was wisdom in what my parents and teachers had stood for…
mind you, i don’t regret leaving the church when i did, or living the life i lived at the time…i think that time has given nuance and depth to the religion i have now…so if you say to me that young people should be allowed to run the church, or else they’ll leave, i’ll say to you, let them leave…let them learn lessons in life through their own experience…there’s nothing more valuable than this…if they’ve had a quality upbringing, they’ll be back…they’ll be able to see the value of real religion, having seen for themselves what life without it means…
So, the next question is, how is this supposed to work? Like, what are the mechanics of this arrangement?
Then, most of all: How does this proposal ablate white supremacy? How does this arrangement satisfy Black people’s desire to manage their own religious experiences, doing so in the setting of a racist denomination?
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Um…OK.
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Agreed.
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This is ignorant, belittling language.
Black people, and the churches we oversee, are not more “emotional.” I don’t know if you’re white, or non-white. But this is the language of the racist who effectively minimizes the Black intellectual experience.
Black people are not “more emotional.” Black culture is, perhaps, typically, more expressive.
In such cultures, the validity and verity of an intellectual experience is not signified through detachment and repose, but through communal display and show.
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Spirituality isn’t “synonymous” with anything. It’s an internal, subjective experience.
Thinking isn’t synonymous with anything, either.
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Now, you’re talking about genes. In other words, there’s a gene for expressiveness.
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@DarrelL’s actually not doing that. That’s not the way one should talk to an aggrieved person.
@drdrjcc is talking about white obliviousness and hard-headedness over their racism. @DarrelL’s response is a typical one: Diffuse the blame—“this statement is true of every person”—and, thus, deflect it, which means don’t accept it; there is no specific white culpability in the history of Adventism. This is merely false.
So, to follow that up with a statement about how white and Black people can worship together is kind of asinine.
Hey: Here’s a strategy: If church leaders want to eliminate regional conferences, find a way to get Black members to move into white neighborhoods, schools, and jobs, first.
Get parity, there. Find ways to make Black people more competitive, with white people, for those limited slots. Do that, and regional conferences with fade away through atrophy.
Actually, it is when it comes to innovative companies over the past few decades.
Eh… Do you know how old Adventist founders were in 1850? Whites were in their 20s, so was Andrews and Smith. They essentially grew older with the church, although they never handed down the rains for moving innovation forward.
Luther was in his 30s when he triggered Reformation movement. Calvin was in his 20s.
But certainly… you can go with Rehoboam to justify the present-day agism in the church.
It’s not really about being stifled. It’s about understanding the changing environment that we live in, and there has been a cultural shift over the past 25 years that the gen born in 1930s and 1940s don’t really understand or are unwilling to understand, again with a few exceptions.
Yes… and I helped teaching University-level class at 19 per request of desperate 50-some profs who didn’t have experience and needed the department to move ahead.
You don’t need to know everything or know everything to be given adequate respensibilities relevant to something one does know or understand. And it’s not a knock down on the older gen for something they can’t keep up with. But, there should be a healthy balance in the management strata that integrates younger generation who does understand certain cultural aspects better, and with a fresher perspective.
A good question should be as to what is the ratio between wide range of perspectives one gets to hear in your church (you are a pastor, right?). How much do you get to hear from 20-some from the pulpit? 30-some? Women? Business and tech professionals? Health-care professionals?
If the only voice the church gets to hear most of the time is yours… Or 50-70s some elders… The church is robbed of broader perspective.
?