Can We At Least Do This?

Spectrum Website
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well, here’s the rub…i don’t necessarily agree that blacks have an answer that whites can use…i see nothing wrong with maintaining regional conferences, along with white and black churches, as long as people feel free to choose where they feel most comfortable…for instance, some people may find it useful to visit both black and white churches on occasion for variety and enrichment…

i disagree…emotion isn’t a less valid human response than any other human response…from my experience, i believe black congregations are much more charged with emotion than white churches and that they, black churches, should be applauded for this…there’s no reason for them to tone anything down…it isn’t wrong, or in any way improper, to bring emotionality into a worship experience…

i have both white and black ancestry…i’m a mixture of zulu, xhosa, german, english, french, dutch and jewish…perhaps i’m uniquely positioned to understand both blacks and whites and the problems they often have in interacting with one another…

black culture, in terms of the worship experience, is more expressive because it’s more emotional…they are not going through any motions for show without feeling deeply what they’re going through…

i think you think i’m saying that because black worship is highly emotional, it’s non-thinking…but this isn’t what i’m saying at all, because it’s very far from the reality…in fact i think the case can be made that blacks experience their worship on a deeper thought level simply because they feel it more intensely…we know that thought and feeling go hand in hand, and tend to reinforce one another…

i think the danger many whites have is not registering any aspect of their worship into their thought patterns because they aren’t as prone to venturing out on an emotional level…perhaps they’ve slept through their entire worship experience because their mind registers it as boring…the fact that whites tend to leave the church more than blacks, at least in some areas, suggests that this is exactly what’s happening…

well i don’t know if there’s a gene for expressiveness…i suspect the situation is vastly more complex than that…but anyone with any familiarity with blacks in a group, and whites in a group, can sense that there is a biological difference in the way things are carried out…this is one reason i don’t believe either group can really help, or even that they should try to help, the other…we don’t want an amalgamation of people into one ideal, or what we think is an ideal, prototype…we want people to be themselves, which in large part is determined by their genes…

actually he is doing that…he is selectively communicating to drdrjcc along lines he feels drdrjcc is open to…

i should tell you that i’m not so sure that adventist blacks have any real reason to feel aggrieved…i’ve seen cases where blacks, being around whites, felt they were discriminated against when whites were simply being themselves, and had no intention of discriminating against anyone…in the supposed stand-off between whites and blacks in our church, i think blacks have as much responsibility as whites…in the same way whites need to accept blacks for who and what they are, blacks need to accept whites for who and what they are, and move on…it serves no purpose to constantly look for interaction along lines that you want, and think you deserve…people need to take the interaction they experience for what it’s worth, without expecting anything to be different…

of course when actual, provable racism, does occur, it should be called out…but while it exists merely on a suppositional level, i don’t think it’s constructive to call people racist…today’s whites have no part in the slavery and discrimination that has characterized the past…for the most part, they’re simply living their lives, and wishing everyone around them well…

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ok, here’s another way of looking at it: blacks are exercising their genetically programmed emotional effusiveness in their worship services more than whites are exercising their genetically programmed emotional effusiveness…

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You are a fast learner.

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Jeremy, is there also a more open minded SDA church in Calgary? If so please let me know so I can visit next time I go to visit my daughter. :woozy_face::innocent:

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Elmer –
Emotionalism.
Jeremy has NOT been around the oldsters here in my building!!
About once a month a group comes in with keyboard, guitar,
microphones and speakers. Begin playing 60’s and 70’s music.
It is the Whites [women] who are the FIRST to get up and begin
dancing. Then the black women and some of the men get up and
begin “shaking” around with some quite good body and feet work.
They know all the words to the songs too!!
Don’t know what you have seen in your practice, but I would say
some of that expression is what is allowed to be developed and what
has been caged up beginning as alittle kid.

I have seen some very good Creative Religious dancing by whites, by
Jews, by Blacks. And they are all similar if they have a good dance teacher.

Some white religious groups I have worshiped with here in the South are
more Expressive. Allowed to raise arms, say AMEN, say Hallelujah! Some
conservative groups label them Pentecostals.

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Here’s an example Steve.

Genetically programmed “emotional effusiveness” in action among whites.

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I think we may be dealing with a “worst case” or “Chicken Little” scenario here but as a Spectrumite whose name is still on the church membership list, I carry no angst over this seeming trend even if the worst happens.

Do any of the rest of you?

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ok but we still have to ask why blacks exercise their genetically programmed emotional effusiveness more than whites exercise their genetically programmed emotional effusiveness in a church setting…is it their history of repression; is it another set of genes that whites lack; or is it a combination…

if by open-minded you mean nondescript and anything goes, mountain view sda church has historically been it…for instance, they used to serve coffee and doughnuts between SS and church, and they used to have a drum corner next to their piano…however, even though it’s headed up by a woman pastor - with a strong aussie accent - a lot of conservatives have started to go, and mountain view is a lot more conventional now…last time i went, i didn’t see any real difference between mountain view and my church (a guest male pastor was preaching), except one of the women up front wore tiny earrings, which would never happen in my church…

alberta is conservative country…you’ll be hard-pressed to find adventists who aren’t into egw and classical adventism…

but i think you just have to accept that the u.s. is more extreme than canada and other countries…not only do you have trump and routine gun violence, but you have millions of people dying of prescription overdoses, not to mention kids getting really sick from vaping…canada is a lot more moderate…we would never elect trump up here:


https://www.thestar.com/opinion/letters_to_the_editors/2019/11/30/many-canadians-are-refusing-to-visit-the-us-as-long-as-donald-trump-is-president.html

i have to say, though, that although i can’t stand trump, i’ll never stop visiting the u.s…i just came back from st. louis for the holidays and had an excellent time…:slightly_smiling_face:

yes, some white adventist congregations do rock…but these are generally confined to celebration churches…this isn’t mainstream white adventism, where you’ll be lucky if anyone says amen to anything…

mind-you my church does have its regulars who say amen, but it isn’t the feedback loop you often see in black churches, where the people feed off a near hysterical preacher, who in turn feeds off the people…and about half the congregation in my church claps at the end of a baptism now…

nope…things are what they are…trends come, and trends go…

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Elmer –
no.1 – Great Song!
no. 2 – mostly a mixed white audience.
no. 3 – reminds me of many of the scenes in the Psalms.
Joining together in song, raising the hands, and the clapping.
The Psalms talk A LOT about Clapping. The hills, the streams,
the rivers, the “sea”. [Joyful NOISE]
MISSING – the waving lights from cell phones.
no 4 – almost a reverential sound from the audience.
WOULD sound good in church.
But for 99.9% of the older generation it would be “The Devil
has taken over!!”

PS – Jeremy ID’d Celebration Churches. I believe he is alluding to
the STYLE of music groups.
Most of the HYMNS, if once can call them that, are just repetitious
words or phrases. The keyboardist, guitarist, drummers, singers – ALL
seem to be doing solos and not blending in together.
Another thing, the singers are NEVER sounding like anyone is helping
them blend in together with the instrumentals.
It is like – The LOUDER, the better it sounds. And articulation many times
is poor. So all of it tends to be grating to the ears.
I even hear this listening to LaSierra church on Sabbath.
I tune in to LaSierra for the pastor’s sermon. I enjoy what she presents.
But I get the music along with it.

Thanks again for the Rod Stewart song!

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celebration churches go beyond music styles…for instance, instead of a sermon, there is often a skit, a mime, or a series of stories recited or read…instead of a pastoral prayer there could be readings, including responsive readings…if there’s communion, there wouldn’t be foot-washing…there may or may not be any offering taken…of course no-one dresses up, at all…it’s basically jeans and t-shirts and some kind of foot-wear…there may not be any service at all, but a potluck gathering at a park or a lake, or some agreed upon clean up activity somewhere in town…

but of course the music is the big draw…it’s tough to listen to what goes on without being critical, but there usually isn’t any skill evident in any of the performances or song services…generally, noice and a raucous atmosphere are standard, but i’ve also seen slow, somewhat pretty songs…

there’s generally much more emotionality evident in a celebration service, although not the kind of emotionality seen in typical black churches, which are often ultra formal, with totally everybody dressed up to the hilt…

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Many contemporary Church Goers do not “dress up”. Some do with
nice dress for women, suit and tie and leather shoes for men. But
many women wear a top, slacks, casual shoes. Men in a number of
styles which can be a button shirt, a colored t-shirt, slacks or perhaps
jeans. In warmer weather shorts. Maybe sandals, tennis shoes, or
even flip-flops and optional socks.
For prayers churches like the Episcopalians have Prayer Of The People.
A member stands in the middle of the room reading them. Are divided into
paragraphs. Between paragraphs the congregations says “Hear us, O Lord.”
Praying for government leaders – national and local. For the Diocese and one
particular church each week. And for one particular Diocese from around the world.
For the sick, homeless, incarcerated. [There is a list of names that are spoken at
this time and others by persons in the congregation]. Prayer for the various
community programs the church is involved in. [NO PASTORAL PRAYER]. They
do Foot Washing once a year on Maundy Thursday evening. Go forward to the
rail for the “bread and wine” – not sit in the pew and have it brought.
Methodists also go forward to the rail to receive.
THE PARK, etc I have been invited to, there is somewhat of a form of Church
service. Perhaps singing. Prayer. A spiritual message presented.

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Thanks, @vandieman.

I said:

You said:

In response:

You said, “The main difference i see is that black churches operate on a much more intense, overt level of emotionality.”

I said, “This is ignorant, belittling language.”

You said, “I disagree,” then delivered your thesis on the “emotionality” of Black worship styles.

I’m not going to fix this.

I said:

You said:

In response:

Perhaps not.

a) You sound non-white. I’m not sure, though.

I said that because yours is the type of answer non-white people often give when asked if they are white, or non-white; i.e., they declare the cornucopia of ethnicities within them; the ones mutually inhabiting their ancestral line. They do this, despite the fact that no question about their ethnic ancestry has been posed.

I’ve seen this happen many, many times.

White people don’t tend to do this. Instead, white people will say that they are white. Or, they’ll avoid answering the question. They’ll say, for example, “I’m a Hungarian Jew.” Or, they might simply say, “I’m not going to answer that”; i.e., words to that effect.

b) When I ask if a person is white, or non-white, I’m not asking, “Do you have white ancestry?” Many, if not most, non-white people have white ancestry, to a great extent because they have ancestors who were raped by white men.

In short, I’m asking, "How have you been racially classified?"

For example, if an average person said, “People who are white, stand on the left. People who aren’t white, stand on the right. Visible errors in your self-classification will be corrected with a machine-gun,” to which side would you go?

I said:

You said:

In response:

You are making statements you simply cannot prove.

You can’t prove an emotion, not to mention the emotions of a crowd, or congregation, of people.

You can say, “Black expression,” which is objective, “makes me emotional,” which is subjective.

But to say, “They are not going through any motions for show without feeling deeply what they’re going through…,” my goodness: You know all of these people?

I said:

You said:

In response:

I’m not saying this. I’m saying what I have already said: Thinking, and feelings (emotions), are subjective phenomena, that can only be verified by the person having the experience.

People who, as you’ve noted, say that, because Black worship is “highly emotional” it’s “non-thinking,” are talking about their own thoughts

They’re not talking about Black people. They’re talking about their thoughts about Black people.

I said:

You said:

In response:

So, now, you’re talking about complex interactions between genes that, then, express for expressiveness.

You said:

In response:

With all due and appropriate respect, this is nonsense.

This sounds like you don’t know how genes work, or that you’ve never heard of behavioral psychology.

Are you into phrenology? It feels like, in five minutes, you’ll be reading the bumps on people’s heads.

I said:

You said:

In response:

He’s “moving his lips.” But he’s not succeeding. Ask @drdrjcc what he thinks of @DarrelL’s response(s).

You said:

In response:

That doesn’t matter.

You said:

In response:

I’ve seen cases where people got run over and killed by drivers who had no intention, that morning, of ending that person’s life.

You said:

In response:

This is ahistorical and naive.

You said:

In response:

I don’t know what you’re talking about.

You said:

In response:

How about when actual racism occurs, as opposed to actual provable racism?

You said:

In response:

  1. I don’t know what “racism…on a suppositional level” means.

  2. I don’t think that any non-white person should call any white person “racist,” unless that white person, first, says that they are a racist.

The reason why is baked into your statement, above: White people will have non-white people chasing their tails in a circle, trying to get them to prove that they, as white people, are racist.

I say, don’t take the bait. Instead, talk about a) what racism is, and b) what a racist does. Then, ask them what they did, and see if they tell the truth. Treat it like court.

You said:

In response:

Today’s whites, often, benefit from the establishment of past racism. As well, they often maintain, expand, and/or refine the global white supremacy system of the present. This makes it likely that racism will remain powerful in the future.

You’ve casually tossed off, above, a poorly thought-out excuse for the very real horrors that non-white people have, do, and will experience under racism.

To do so, as a non-white person, is to strongly affirm the veracity of a statement one of my mentors frequently makes: "If you don’t understand white supremacy, everything else that you try to understand will only confuse you."

HA

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Definitely not a style of church that I would go to. I am very conservative in regard to the style of the service. And music, for me, needs to be of really good quality, not just some BS (Boring Songs) that repeat each line 13 times or so…

Also, be careful with what you write (“you said”). It appears that you are under intense fire of a word-by-word scrutiny… LOL… Maybe it’s your day of judgment, right here, right now… :roll_eyes: :innocent:

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