Causes of Disunity


(Gillian Ford) #21

Yes, but obedience to Christ. Follow ME, he says. Ellen White matured. She did not always agree with the brethren. She did not always see them as the voice of God on earth. But she followed Christ more and more as her life progressed.


(Harry Elliott) #22

Matt, you just lit the entire landscape of our problem with a thunderbolt! If we see someone pick up a stick on Sabbath, does God move us to pick up a rock? Or is His morality a million times larger than that?

Are we uncomfortable when we read of Jesus saying that sons of man (male and female) outrank law, or do we sense that we won’t have to tiptoe through eternity terrified that another human somewhere will make another mistake?


(reliquum) #23

When the fractal murmurs of disunity lightning-like schismed across heavens fissures, the head said to the (slightly lesser) other two present, let us make committees in our likeness, and have them report to us all of the disunities they find, and we will exact painful punishments upon them because they have asked for it. We know, because we polled them; here are the rightful results that prove we must do this.

And so was a church born, the church that claims the name of the head.

And they all nodded their assent, all the heads, that this was all true.

That is how God handled it then, right? Who are we to be at variance with the heavenly pattern?


(Harry Elliott) #24

Harrpa, if we define disunity as differing on doctrinal fine points, then that definition is a cause of disunity. Ask any SDA where exactly and when exactly the Sabbath begins and ends each week. Then ask them if they know that the our church now honors changes that human agencies make to that time and place. (Yikes!)


(Phil van der Klift) #25

Does anyone else recognise that this call is the same one underpinning the current Ecumenical movement.

In addition, I would respectfully assert that this call is a incapable of resulting in the depth of genuine unity that Jesus prayed for in Jn 17:23.

The kind of unity Jesus prayed for can only come as a byproduct when the foundational factors that underpin such unity are in place. The most foundational factor pertains to lives anchored in and motivated by Agape/self-renouncing/self-sacrificing love that characterises the core essence of God (1Jn 4:8); that was manifest in atoning/reconciling life and ministry of Jesus (Jn 15:13); and which constitutes “the law of life for earth and heaven” (DA p20).

In Jn 17:11, Jesus says, “Holy Father, keep them in your name, the name which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are”. Bible student’s will be aware that reference to ‘name’ is reference to character. Hence, Jesus outlines the connection between character and the capacity for and actuality of unity. And what is the essence of God’s character?

A careful consideration of the breadth of what self-renouncing love actually encompasses and how such love is manifest within a given set of circumstances will be necessary to assess the validity of the claim that I have asserted above.


#26

Ellen White, Last Day Events, p. 48.
“While we will endeavor to keep the “unity of the Spirit” in the bonds of peace, we will not with pen or voice cease to protest against bigotry.”—The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, 356, 357 (1889).


(Andrea Zaccaria) #27

When you lie you accept the universal law of truth and you except yourself from it, it’s a sin.
They are deceiving themselves and others. They admit that the law stands : women and men are equal thus women can be pastors. elders, administrators, teachers and prophets. They except themselves from the law : women cannot rule over them that are at a certain level of seniority nor be their equal. This is a non biblical lie that the church has been living and it has to stop, Now.
Women and men are equal it’s the good news. We cannot except ourselves from it.


(Sirje) #28

God is not looking for a quorum - “Where two or three are gathered together…”. This implies we don’t need majority vote for God’s blessings. The crowd will always choose Barrabas because it’s expedient somehow.

If the churches on the outer edges of Christian enlightenment are so fragile in their commitments, then SDA missions has failed; and we need to come up with another program for 'bringing in the sheaves". After over a hundred years, you would think the message of the “remnant” would have garnered more humane attitudes. Instead of “equality in Christ,” the “present truth” of Adventism has backfired into acquiescence.

The burkas have to come off.


(George Tichy) #29

Men who behave as they do, fighting so fiercely and insistently to perpetuate discrimination of women, have a serious character/morality problem. Let alone the spiritual problem. Their views and beliefs on the issue are completely distorted, but they behave as if they were right and everyone else wrong.

The question, though, is:
How come the church allows individuals like that to stay in positions where they can hurt so many people, and the Church as well?


#30

Denominational disunity will be perpetuated by typical inept teaching methods.

For example: there will be many SS teachers who will start the lesson and never get the class to Wednesday or Thursday segments which are very significant as far as the disunity issue.
The church was basically Catholic until Luther, Calvin and others TAUGHT bible differently than the Catholic clergy.

The reason that there are so many Protestant denominations is because of the variety of spins put on bible verses by pastors from seminaries that don’t agree with each other.

The doctrine of the SDA denomination is at odds with 99% of Christianity.

The SDA denomination is in disagreement & polarized because of what scholars/pastors assume the bible says are doesn’t say on W.O.

Did Jesus gripe and contend with Caesar & Pilate or with scripture teachers?


#31

What is so pathetic are the typical calls for unity like “unity is NOT sameness.”…“it is not uniformity”, we can have unity and still “respectfully disagree”. What unity is that referring to, Institutional unity?

What about…“Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” Amos 3:3 Well does that mean…we can have unity , but we just won’t walk side by side.

and this…"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. " 1 JN 1:7

SDA can have unity and say "HAPPY SABBTH every week but not have real fellowship. Talk about superficial relationships!


#32

I’d like to examine a part of this week’s SS lesson in more detail.
The following two quotes from Tuesday’s lesson comment on the story of Rehoboam and his heavy taxation of the people which split the kingdom apart. (As a result, Jeroboam became king of the 10 northern tribes called Israel, Rehoboam remained king over the two southern tribes which were known as Judah.)

‘“Had Rehoboam and his inexperienced counselors understood the divine will concerning Israel, they would have listened to the request of the people for decided reforms in the administration of the government. But in the hour of opportunity that came to them during the meeting in Shechem, they failed to reason from cause to effect, and thus forever weakened their influence over a large number of the people. Their expressed determination to perpetuate and add to the oppression introduced during Solomon’s reign was in direct conflict with God’s plan for Israel, and gave the people ample occasion to doubt the sincerity of their motives. In this unwise and unfeeling attempt to exercise power, the king and his chosen counselors revealed the pride of position and authority.” - Ellen G. White, Prophets and Kings, p. 90.’

‘The story of Rehoboam and his rash and unwise decision to impose more conscripted labor on his people is a sad event in the life of the kingdom of Israel. The king sought counsel from two groups of advisors, but his final decision to follow the counsel of less-experienced young men his own age brought a catastrophe on the kingdom that his father Solomon and grandfather David had built during the preceding 80 years. The advice that the king should intimidate the crowd by declaring that he is tougher than his father was foolish counsel. The young advisors believed that to be sympathetic of the people’s demands for less-rigorous labor was not the leadership style the king should adopt. He should, they said, present himself as ruthless and cruel instead. In the end, he showed himself to be a bully and undeserving of his people’s allegiance and faithfulness. Hence, a division occurred among God’s people that never should have been there and that was never God’s plan for His people.’

In 1Kings 11 we are given insight into why this split in the kingdom occurred. It was a judgment of God on the Jewish nation because of Solomon’s sin in being unfaithful to Him (vs 33).
Through the prophet Ahijah, God told Jeroboam, ‘See, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you…’ (vs 31).
After Rehoboam announced his decision about worsening the financial yoke on the people, we read, ‘So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat (1Ki 12:15). Thus, the resulting split was in fact ‘the divine will concerning Israel’.

So, does the lesson agree with the Bible?
The lesson tells us that the decision about taxation was Rehoboam’s to make and was ‘rash’ and ‘unwise’, and so ‘a division occurred among God’s people that never should have been there’. The result ‘was never God’s plan for His people’. Rehoboam’s and his young counsellors’ ‘expressed determination to perpetuate and add to the oppression introduced during Solomon’s reign was in direct conflict with God’s plan for Israel’.

The Bible tells us that the decision about increasing the taxes was not Rehoboam’s or his counsellors’ idea, it had already been mandated by God as his method of ‘tearing the kingdom’ from Solomon for his sins. The division of the kingdom was not in direct conflict with God’s plan for Israel, it was God’s plan for Israel as God explained to Solomon while Solomon was still king and well before Rehoboam took his place on the throne. (1Ki 11: 11-13).

Similarly, could the current disunity in Adventism also be the result of a judgment of God upon the church? Perhaps prayers should be humbly directed at obtaining an answer to that question.


(George Tichy) #33

Could the answer be, “Repeal & Replace?”
Those people are doing the impossible to perpetuate discrimination of women, which is of course morally AND spiritually wrong. But, as long as they (Ted Wilson and his minions) stay in power this battle will continue - now disguised by beards! :open_mouth: .
I wonder when (if ever) the Church will become tired of this divisiveness and tendency to dictatorship, and will vote those people OUT!


#34

Here is SOP comment on Wednesday’s segment:

"Ministers Not to Be Idolized

There can be NO STRONGER evidence in churches that the truths of the Bible have not sanctified the receivers than their ATTACHMENT to some FAVORITE MINISTER, and their unwillingness to accept and be profited by the labors of some other teacher who is sent to them in the providence of God. The Lord sends help to His church as they need, not as they choose; for short-sighted mortals cannot discern what is for their best good. It is seldom that one minister has all the qualifications necessary to perfect any one church in all the requirements of Christianity; therefore God sends other ministers to follow him, one after another, each one possessing some qualifications in which the others were deficient." 6 BC 1086

The quote addresses the typical immature conventional mindset of most churchgoers.

Herd mentality, people followers, follow the crowd, blind leading the blind issues, peer pressure, intimidation, clergy bullies.

The quote even has in it that doctrinal offensive word/expletive to the defeatist crowd in SDA land—“perfect”


#35

It is total nonsense & fantasy for any SDA leaders or members to think there will be any denominational unity when most members spend a very little portion of their 7000 weekly waking minutes at church or involved in devotional or outreach efforts. Just 70-140 minutes a week is countered by perverted depraved secular video entertainment, political conflicts, tragic news, obsession with sports, materialism, etc

How clueless can one be when the calls come for revival, which just results in temporary spiritual/institutional enthusiasm and are followed by the usual zombie rut church experience?

The rut is caused by old wine skin , inept teaching methods which need reforming.

The denomination is clueless on reformation.

“Wherever the Word of God has been faithfully preached, results have followed that attested its divine origin. The Spirit of God accompanied the message of his servants, and the word was with power.” GC 461

"Often Make Sabbath Meeting a Bible Class—It has often been presented to me that there should be less sermonizing by ministers acting merely as local pastors of churches, and that greater personal efforts should be put forth. Our people should not be made to think that they need to listen to a sermon every Sabbath. Many who listen frequently to sermons, even though the truth be presented in clear lines, learn but little. Often it would be more profitable if the Sabbath meetings were of the nature of a Bible class.: EV 348


#36

So many on this site gripe about Ted on the WO issue and yet the SDA denomination is pathetic in its educational area.

The conference ministerial secretaries & sabbath school secretaries need to be put in the hot seat.

I think many don’t realize this because they have been only on the receiving end of SDA style teaching and never outside the denominational box.

There are also plenty of non-SDA inept, impotent, irrelevant churches that are dying as well because their clergy are clueless.

Many non churched of the younger generations see this and won’t set a foot in churches.


#37

“The ministers must be converted before they can strengthen their brethren. They should not preach themselves, but Christ and His righteousness. A REFORMATION is needed among the people, but it should first BEGIN its purifying work with the MINISTERS
1T 469


(George Tichy) #38

Come on, for how many centuries will you keep using texts like this one?

This was probably written because at that time there must have been something going on with the ministers, and needed a fix. Extrapolating it to all times thereafter including today, is really pushing. Considering your extraordinary ability to teach, I am confused: how did you fall into a trap like this, applying this text to everyone (minister) in all times since it was written?

Using EGW’s writings for every single issue in Church is what makes Adventism to appear being a cult. Just appear… :roll_eyes:


#39

George,
I know you have very strong feelings about the WO issue but I was hoping you (and others reading my comment above) would set them aside temporarily and contemplate what I was trying to convey in my comment.

I didn’t want to come right out and say it but Adventists pride themselves on being ‘people of the book’ but Tuesday’s SS lesson shows this is not so. They are people of Adventist theology. The contrast between the Biblical account and way the lesson portrays the Rehoboam incident is but one example.

The lesson does not relate that the Bible tells us God was the source of the Rehoboam tax decision because Adventist theology does not really believe that God is sovereign over His creation (i.e., that we are held within boundaries set by God and sometimes He interjects His will into a situation. I believe that ultimately His will for us will be done on earth (as we request in the Lord’s prayer)).

Adventist theology also does not accept the fact that sometimes to get His way God interferes with man’s will. (I believe that God’s will cannot be thwarted by man’s will even though it often seems so and God often takes a long time in getting His way). This preeminence of man’s will is assumed in Adventism; the Rehoboam incident is one (among others) that shows this view is not Biblical.

Jesus said that if we are to enter the kingdom of heaven we must change and become like little children.
In some situations a parent will take away the free will of a young child and impose his or her own will. If the parent is motivated by love this is done for the long term benefit of the child. I believe God is love, and so sometimes He overrules our will. Someday we will see that often His love means not leaving us to our own choices.


#40

Another reply demonstrating Disunity.

George you must lead a very limited/sheltered life in your SDA world of usually griping about TW & WO.