Sirje, nothing I could possibly write would satisfy you or anyone else here. Also I dont have all the answers; that was not the reason for my comment. Plus I probably should have waited till tomorrow to reply, it almost being 1 am here.
HawaiiTF, appantly people totally missed what I wrote or more importantly why I wrote it. It was not to give sufficient proof for why I believe what I do, but simply to say, what I did at the beginning of my comment:
“Everyone will site sources, and go to those that will advance their own beliefs. I can do that too”
And I did just that. Also it’s as though you completely ignored or missed what I quoted which goes against what you just wrote. Again, like I already said, We will go to those sources which agree with what we believe. You need to take it up with those I quoted.
I didn’t mean to give you a hard time. Yes, there are all kinds theories and comments about ancient people told time, and how this seven day week came about. I can’t dal with all of them. Our issue here is, not how many ideas there are, but what the Bible says about it. The problem is, SDA story about the Sabbath is that it will be kept in forever, along with the new moon festival - which is ignored totally. The only reason for that festival was to start a new month. Have a restful night. I’m out in the garden planting stuff.
I’m adding this, assuming you haven’t seen the post yet. For me the process goes like this -
-We read Isaiah 66 and that equates the new moon with the Sabbath.
-So we ask “what is the new moon thing, anyway”, not having heard anything about it.
-You find out it was a festival celebrating the beginning of a new month.
-A new month assumes a new series of weeks that are numbered, since that is how the Hebrews told time. They didn’t have names for their days.
-You know that they designating time by the name of the month + the number of the day (of that month).
-Ergo: the days must have started new, each month.
-How did they know when to start counting the days of the new month - the appearance of the new moon.
Not sure what you mean by that. I directly responded to a quote that claimed there were two problems, yet those are not valid problems at all. As I pointed out, there is no indication of a free running week prior to around the time of the Romans, so claiming its a problem that the lunar week needs to be reconciled against a free running claim for the Jewish week is nonsense. And with regards to name Sabbath, I don’t get that one at all because again, it seems to have Babylonian roots as well:
Further, reconstruction of a broken tablet seems to define the rarely attested Sapattum or Sabattum as the full moon. This word is cognate or merged with Hebrew Shabbat, but is monthly rather than weekly; it is regarded as a form of Sumerian sa-bat (“mid-rest”), attested in Akkadian as um nuh libbi (“day of mid-repose”). According to Marcello Craveri, Sabbath “was almost certainly derived from the Babylonian Shabattu, the festival of the full moon, but, all trace of any such origin having been lost, the Hebrews ascribed it to Biblical legend.” This conclusion is a contextual restoration of the damaged Enûma Eliš creation account, which is read as: “[Sa]bbath shalt thou then encounter, mid[month]ly.”
I originally started out on this topic from the staunchly SDA viewpoint. I used to tell my non-SDA friends that the weekly running 7-day cycle plus the alignment of Sabbath was actually “proof” of creationism and the historical accuracy of the Bible. Then I actually started looking at what the record is. I finally found a book, written by a Jewish individual, making the same arguments. You can get one yourself, but I’d suggest not wasting the money. The truth of the matter is, there is no historical documentation of a free running 7-day week until after the time of the Assyrian and Babylonian calendars, and their extensive documentation on the importance of 7-day cycles as initiated by the lunar cycle. And then Lev comes along and uses the SAME system. Now how did that happen?
I looked up that verse on biblehub.com, and several different translations used the word “rest” instead of remnant. The KJ Version used “remnant”. I didn’t go through all the options…
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that worked miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
This is from the King James 2000 version. It seems that *the rest" in this verse is referring to those which had been deceived and had received the MOB and worshiped his image.
I enjoyed looking further into these verses.
Horns of yet another dilemma…or…???
Yeah…so Sirje and I have really been wondering what all this is about…for many years now.
The Lunar Sabbath & the SDA Church
The history of the lunar Sabbath teaching within the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the sad story of a cover-up spanning decades.
Heaven has tried many times to bring this truth to the world, but each time spiritual pride or fear of the consequences of accepting such a radically different truth has led the Church to reject it and, still more, to cover up the evidences in support of this truth.
In the mid-1990s, questions arising out of California and Washington regarding the concept of the lunar Sabbath prompted the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists (GC) to take action.
In 1995, an order originating from the office of then-GC president, Robert Folkenberg, Sr., commissioned a study group to look into the issue of calculating the Sabbath by the ancient Hebrew luni-solar calendar.
The committee members consisted of five scholars hand-picked from the seminary at Andrews University. In addition to these five, there was also a representative from the Ministerial Department of the North American Division (NAD) of Seventh-day Adventists and another representative from the Ministerial Department of the General Conference. Robert M. Johnston, professor of New Testament and Christian Origins at the seminary,
was selected to head this research committee. No representative from the Biblical Research Institute was on the committee as it was felt that the well-respected scholarship of the various members was of sufficient authority that it was not needed.
The vaults were thrown open for the committee. They were asked to research the Grace Amadon Collection (housed at the Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University) as well as the four volume series, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Leroy Edwin Froom. Additional material supplied the committee for study was a series of letters, written by well-respected Adventist scholar, M. L. Andreasen. A research paper on the subject by Elder J. H. Wierts was to be provided, but before it could be studied, something unexpected happened.
It had been expected that the committee would be able to very quickly refute the idea of a lunar Sabbath. What was not expected was what actually happened: as the committee members began studying into the subject, a number of them became convicted of its truth!
The fact is, the entire Seventh-day Adventist denomination was founded upon a belief that the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 ended on October 22, 1844, as taught by the Millerite Movement of the 1840s. This is significant because the only way to arrive at that date is by using the ancient Biblical luni-solar calendar.
As far back as April, and then in June and December of 1843, and in February of 1844, months before [William] - Miller’s original date expired for the ending of the “Jewish year 1843” at the time of the vernal [spring] equinox in 1844 - his associates (Sylvester Bliss, Josiah Litch, Joshua V. Himes, Nathaniel Southard, Apollos Hale, Nathan Whiting, and others) came to a definite conclusion.
This was that the solution of Daniel’s prophecy is dependent upon the ancient or original Jewish form of luni-solar time, and not upon the altered modern rabbinical Jewish calendar. . . . They therefore began to shift from Miller’s original date for the ending of the 2300 years (at the equinox in March), over to the new moon of April, 1844. (Leroy E. Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 796.2)
Without the original luni-solar calendar, there would be no Day of Atonement on October 22 in 1844.
This ancient method of time-measurement was the very foundation for determining the time prophecy and the cleansing of the sanctuary doctrine which is the hallmark belief of the Seventh-day Adventist Church which grew out of the Millerite movement.
I don’t possess the smarts, or the scholarship, or the inside baseball to understand what is really going on here.
Seems like it could be important, though.
(This is post #77)
Evil: Ancient and Modern
King James. "Remnant"
New International. "Rest"
Living Bible. "Entire army"
I see that “remnant” isn’t always used in Rev 12:17 as well. Many translations use “the rest of her children”, or “rest of her offspring”. I didn’t look at all of them (there are lots of translations), but the several that I randomly looked at did not use the term “remnant”.
I think that is the abbreviation for In Heavenly Places.
All (most) English versions not including Clear Word…
lI don’t either - just copied what was given with the quote. I hoped someone would know what that stands for. It can be checked out on the White Estate and search for “new moon” or Isaiah 66.
I misread your post. - sorry.
Interesting stuff. A problem with a lot of our peculiar doctrines is that our pioneers seem to have used interpretations that weren’t necessarily the ones intended. I think in such cases the resultant doctrines should always start with “MAYBE”. MAYBE Rev 12 means the REST (Bingo!) of her children who obey God’s instructions and preach the Gospel of Jesus. If Miller had emphasized the MAYBE part of a day equals a year, people might have been “ready” but not disappointed!
Paul, do you think that a lot, or some of the prophecies in Revelation, refer to Israel, not the Christian church?
Interesting day to ask, and I just did…
Indeed, and more than that. No contemporaneous documentation attests the existence of any 7-day week–anywhere–before Mesopotamia,ca, 700 B.C. Nevertheless an elegant “decoder” has been found that shows that the order of the days in the 7-day Roman calendar was derived from the pecking order of the gods of Mesopotamia nine centuries earlier). The modern Jewish calendar uses Babylonian month names. During the Exodus, God instructed Israel reckon the year from spring to spring, but since they returned from captivity, the have celebrated the New Year in the fall. Not a great “box score”.
A related issue that has always struck me is that Daniel & Co never had Sabbath problems in Babylon. Their problems with the King related to food edicts, and yet if there was a free running Sabbath, independent of the Babylonian lunar Sabbaths, then surely that would have been a far greater conflict. In fact, for modern observant Jews and SDA’s Sabbath observance is probably the most common conflict in trying to live in the modern world. Yet there is no record at all of Jews in Babylon having difficulty keeping Sabbath. Why is that?
Same for Esther BTW a bit later with the Persians. The issue in Esther is the failure to bow down to the king, never a mention of Sabbath conflicts. Again, why is that?
A very nice explanation is because there was no conflict…
I don’t know what else to write to you to make my intent clear. It was not to try and prove or disprove anything. You seem to have missed this. I’ll re-quote myself:
It, again, was not meant to change your mind, but, again, to show that there are counter arguments and that, “everyone will site sources, and go to those that will advance their own beliefs.”
Yes, and those I quoted provided counter-arguments, and give evidences for why. Now you reject their evidence, fine.
I need to provide no such thing. You’re the one who believes that they kept a lunar Sabbath, and then at some point in history changed it to the Roman one. In actual fact, it is you who needs to provide evidence, and not theories, as to when they changed it. My argument would be a much better one, in that, the reason we don’t find any writings from the Jews of that time having changed from one system to another, is because it never occurred. If they did, they would have recorded it, and you most certainly would have provided it.
I’ll end with this, and you can do what you like with it: To think that the Jews changed the Sabbath day of which we have 0 recorded evidence, requires more than faith. They had written laws for everything, and I mean everything. And yet, I’m to believe, they just maybe forgot to record this “little” detail, or didn’t think it important enough… come on. The Sabbath was the one area that they were the most strict on. I recall reading sometime ago, that the Jews believed the Messiah would only arrive after they have kept one Sabbath day perfectly.
At least with Christianity we have recordings of early Christians speaking of no longer keeping the “Jewish” Sabbath, and even a council on it: Council of Laodicea (cannon 29). Which expressly told Christians not to “judaize by resting on the Sabbath.” And yet, the Jews themselves, recorded nothing…
Not at all.
As they say, If you can’t handle the heat, then get out of the kitchen.
Also to your question about the new moon. My answer is, I don’t know. I would have to really dig into it to give a fair answer.
You are right, of course. These tired arguments are just blowing smoke. When Pharasees from Jerusalem went out into the Diaspora telling the Gentile converts they must obey the Law, Peter called the Law something “which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.” (Acts 15:10 )
James’ response was just as emphatic “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS, saying, YE MUST be circumcised, and KEEP THE LAW: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT”. (Acts 15:24)
Clearly, the Gentile Christians were not keeping the Law or the Pharasee Christians wouldn’t have told them they needed to start. (That’s not rocket science.)
Another argument for keeping the Law is that every Sabbath, Christians were in synagogue[!] Fortunately some translations make it clear that the particular text referred to isn’t talking about Gentile Christians.
We must remember that the Law of Moses has been preached in city after city for many years, and every Sabbath it is read when we Jews meet. (Acts 15:21 CEV)
A couple of other passages I think we usually miss:
To a congregation whose members are all Gentiles who are being conned into submitting to the initation rite (circumcision) that places them under the Law: " LEAVE THE LAW ALONE!"
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe [seventh?] day[Sabbath]s, and months [new moon Sabbaths?], and times[seasonal Sabbaths?], and [Sabbatical?] years. (Gal 4:9,10)
To the Gentile members of a mixed congregation whose Jewish members are having trouble giving up the Sabbaths of the Law:" DON’T RUSH THEM. LET THEM CONTINUE TO SABBATIZE AS LONG AS THEY FEEL A NEED TO!"
5b…One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.__(Rom 14:5b, 6)
The fascinating thing here is that in Galatia, he’s deeply alarmed at observing holy days, whereas in Rome, “it ain’t no biggie”. But in neither case is he really a fan of holy days.
This is important stuff. It’s a shame that we systematically spin the message of Galatians.
I don’t think the ancient Jews had weeks on their calendars. Just think how full their houses would be with pottery Tishreis and Nisans. How could you make a calendar for next year if you don’t know in advance, which months have 30 days. Etc. The Bible mentions “seventh day” about three dozen times, but “seventh day of the week”: NEVER. When Jesus spoke of being raised on “the third day”, He didn’t mean the third day of the week. When the commandment says circumcise your new son on the eighth day, it can’t possibly mean the eighth day of the week. So where did we get the idea that “the seventh day” means the seventh day of the week"?
The Samoans know by now that there’s no way to know which day is in synch with the seventh day of creation week if God didn’t tell us where He put His date-line. And He didn’t. I’ve noticed that every commandment in the Bible to keep the seventh day holy always says to work six consecutive days first. Maybe the Jews didn’t have a problem because they had the opportunity to take their first sabbath immediately after working six or fewer consecutive days. Maybe God never criticized anyone in the Bible for observing Sabbath on the wrong day because His definition of the right day is more reasonable than ours.
Even a Cathholic who works six days (ANY six consecutive days) and takes the next day off is probably making that seventh day a legitimate Sabbath!
One last shot. I recently discovered that Sabbath begins at sundown only on the ninth day of the seventh month.(Lev 23:32) Evidently, we’re just as blinded by tradition as everybody else.