Change of Law?

(Harry Elliott) #61

AsI recall the SDA Bible Commentary discussion of Isa 66 takes the position that Isa was looking at conditions on the present earth if Jesus were accepted by Israel on His first advent. The inhabitants of the ultimate new earth will certainly NOT week-by-week for eternity " look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

(Harry Elliott) #62

Our use of the word translated remnant misunderstands and misuses it. Proof of that screams at us from the word’s final occurrence in the KJV:

And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. (Rev 19:21)

(Harry Elliott) #63

That’s true, but it doesn’t matter. Until Constantine, the days of the week followed the original 7-day calendar invented by the Babylonians which made Saturnsday the first day of the week. Constantine changed that by dropping a day, just once, to make Sunday the premier day of the week. A side-effect was that Saturday became the seventh day of the week. After that settled in, people eventually began to assume that the “seventh day” in the commandment actually meant the seventh day of the week!

But the Bible never used “the [ordinal number] day” that way. Consider Lev 23:39b: “…on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.” Obviously that can’t mean the eighth day of the week!

Every mention of the seventh day as a sabbath follows the set-up reference to six consecutive days of work. To paraphrase, “Whenever you work six days in a row, rest on the next day.” Doesn’t that make a lot more sense than Speculate where God placed His International Dateline and which day of the week is a whole multiple of seven days after the seventh day of creation week and rest on that day. quote=“KevinSeidel, post:48, topic:15965, full:true”]

TO THE SYS-OP: I WOULD EAGERLY FOLLOW THE PROCESS YOU DESCRIBED. Could you provide a more detailed step-by-step for an 86 year-old brain?

(Barry Ford) #64

jI was always told the 7 day week always existed from the earliest times but I always wondered about the date line where human intervention could change the day of the week.
I must say this information is huge does Ted Wilson know about this and how will it impact the SDA church? The remnant church and the mark of the beast doctrines are now untenable.
I have seen on the internet people claiming the sabbath being tied too the lunar cycle but I hadn’t taken too much notice until now.
Has their been any official rebuttal of this information by the SDA church?


Everyone will site sources, and go to those that will advance their own beliefs. I can do that too:

Shabbat - Wikipedia


The longstanding traditional Jewish position is that unbroken seventh-day Shabbat originated among the Jewish people, as their first and most sacred institution.[3] The origins of Shabbat and a seven-day week are not clear to scholars; the Mosaic tradition claims an origin from the Biblical creation.[4][5]

Seventh-day Shabbat did not originate with the Egyptians, to whom it was unknown;[6] and other origin theories based on the day of Saturn, or on the planets generally, have also been abandoned.[7]

Connection to Sabbath observance has been suggested in the designation of the seventh, fourteenth, nineteenth, twenty-first and twenty-eight days of a lunar month in an Assyrian religious calendar as a ‘holy day’, also called ‘evil days’ (meaning “unsuitable” for prohibited activities). The prohibitions on these days, spaced seven days apart, include abstaining from chariot riding, and the avoidance of eating meat by the King. On these days officials were prohibited from various activities and common men were forbidden to “make a wish”, and at least the 28th was known as a “rest-day”.[9][10] The Universal Jewish Encyclopedia advanced a theory of Assyriologists like Friedrich Delitzsch[3] (and of Marcello Craveri)[11] that Shabbat originally arose from the lunar cycle in the Babylonian calendar[12][13] containing four weeks ending in Sabbath, plus one or two additional unreckoned days per month.[14] The difficulties of this theory include reconciling the differences between an unbroken week and a lunar week, and explaining the absence of texts naming the lunar week as Sabbath in any language.[7] (emphasis added)

Week - Wikipedia

A continuous seven-day cycle that runs throughout history paying no attention whatsoever to the phases of the moon was probably first practiced in Judaism, dated to the 6th century BC at the latest.[8][9]

There are several hypotheses concerning the origin of the biblical seven-day cycle.

Friedrich Delitzsch and others suggested that the seven-day week being approximately a quarter of a lunation is the implicit astronomical origin of the seven-day week[10] , and indeed the Babylonian calendar used intercalary days to synchronize the last week of a month with the new moon.[11] According to this theory, the Jewish week was adopted from the Babylonians while removing the moon-dependency.

However, Niels-Erik Andreasen, Jeffrey H. Tigay and others claimed that the sabbath is mentioned as a day of rest in some of the earliest layers of the Pentateuch dated to the 9th century BC at the latest, centuries before Judea’s Babylonian exile. They also find the resemblance between the biblical Sabbath and the Babylonian system weak. Therefore, they suggested that the seven-day week may reflect an independent Israelite tradition.[12][13][14][15] Tigay writes:

It is clear that among neighboring nations that were in position to have an influence over Israel - and in fact which did influence it in various matters - there is no precise parallel to the Israelite Sabbatical week. This leads to the conclusion that the Sabbatical week, which is as unique to Israel as the Sabbath from which it flows, is an independent Israelite creation.[14][16]

Difficulties with Friedrich Delitzsch’s origin theory connecting Hebrew Shabbat with the Babylonian lunar cycle[26] include reconciling the differences between an unbroken week and a lunar week, and explaining the absence of texts naming the lunar week as Shabbat in any language.[27] (emphasis supplied)

God is not the author of confusion.

The first to plead his case seems right, Until another comes and examines him. (Prov. 18:17)

Like I wrote above, anyone can site sources to prove their beliefs.

Below is a small list of languages that indicate a seven day weekly cycle with the seventh day as the Sabbath / Rest.


Hebrew Bible Yom Ha Shabbath or Day of the Sabbath

Hebrew (ancient and modern) Shabbath or Sabbath

Targum of Onkelos (Hebrew literature) Yom Shviaa or Day Seventh AND Sabbath or Sabbath

Kurdistan Jews (Targum dialect) Yoymet Shabbat Kodesh or Holy Sabbath Day

Ancient Syriac Shabbatho or Sabbath

Chaldee Syriac (Kurdistan; Urumia, Persia) Shapta or Sabbath

Samaritan (Nablas, Palestine) (use old Hebrew letters) Yoma Hasheviah or Day the Seventh AND Shabbath or Sabbath

Babylonian (Euphrates and Tigris Valleys, Mesopotamia) Sabatu or Sabbath

Assyrian (Euphrates & Tigris Valleys, Mesopotamia) Sabatu or Sabbath

Arabic (very old names) Shiyar or Chief or Rejoicing Day

Arabic (ancient and modern; W. Asia, E, W & N Africa) Assabt or The Sabbath

Maltese (Malta) Issibt or Sabbath

Tigre (Abyssinia) Sanbat or Sabbath

Amharic (Abyssinia) Sanbat or Sabbath

Falasha (Jews of Abyssinia) Yini Sanbat or The Sabbat


Coptic (Egypt; a dead language for 300 years) Pi Sabbaton or The Sabbath

Orma or Galla (south of Abyssinia) Zambada or Sabbath

Tamashek or Towarek (ancient Libyan or Numidian) Ahal Essabt or The Sabbath Day

Kabyle or Berber (Ancient Numidian; N Africa) Ghas or Sabbath Day

Hausa (Central Africa) Aseebatu or The Sabbath


Sanscrit (India) Shanivar or Saturn-day

Hindi (India) Shumiwar or Saturn-day

Pali (India) Sanivaro or Saturn-day

Urdu or Hindustani (Islamic and Hindu, India) Shamba or Sabbath; And Sanichar or Saturn

Pashto or Afghan (Afghanistan) Khali or Unemployed day; And Shamba or Holiday, Sabbath

Pahlavi or Pahlavi-Pazand (Ancient Persian) Kevan or Saturn; And Shambid or Fragrance - The pleasantest day of the week; And Dies Sabbati or Sabbath

Persian (Persia; Modern Iran) Shambih or Holiday, Sabbath

Armenian (Armenia) Shapat or Sabbath

Kurdish (Kurdistan) Shamba or Sabbath

Brahuiky (Beluchistan) Awalihafta or First or Chief of the Seven; And Shambe or Sabbath


Mongolian (Sharra-Mongolian; Eastern Mongolia) Sanitear and Bemba or The Son of the Sun, Saturn

Kalmuk (Western Mongolia) Bembe Graku or Saturn Planet

Turkish (Osmanlian; Turkey) Yomessabt or Day the Sabbath

Lazen (Pashelik of Trebisond) Ssabatun or Sabbath


Chinese (Roman Catholic; earlier) Chanlitsi or Worship-day Seven

Mohammadan Chinese Saibitai or Sabbath

Annamite (Annam) Ngaythubay or Day in order Seven

Ancient Peguan (Pegu-Burma) T’pauh or (Day) Seven

Khassi (Cossyah Hills, East of Bengal) Ka sngi sait-jain or A day to wash clothes; Purification-day

Tibetan (Tibet) Za-pen pa or (Planet Seven)

Boutan (Little Tibet) Pen-pa or Eye of God=Saturn; AND Odsardunpa or Seventh Brilliant Star

Georgian (Caucasus) Shabati or Sabbath

Suanian (Caucasus)Ingouish (Caucasus) Sammtyn or Sabbath

Aware or Avar (Daghistan; Cis-Caucasus) Samat qo or Sabbath Day


Malayan (Sumatra) hari Sabtu or Day Sabbath

Javanese (Java) Saptoe (saptu) or Sabbath

Sunda (West Java) Saptu or Sabbath

Dayak (Borneo) Sabtu or Sabbath

Makssar (Southern Celebes and Salayer Islands) Sattu or Sabbath

Bugis (Celebes) Sattu or Sabbath

Malagassay (Madagascar) Alsabotsy or The Sabbath

Nuforian (NW New Guinea) Ras Fiek or Day Seven


Swahili (East Africa) Assabu or The Sabbath

Congo (West Africa) Satade or Saturday; AND Kiaosabulu or Sabbado: Sabbath

Isolated Languages—

Wolof (Sengambia, W Africa) Alere-asser or Last Day - Sabbath

Fulah (W Africa) Essibt or The Sabbath

Mandingo (South of Senegal, W Africa) Sibiti or Sabbath

Teda (Central Africa) Essebdu or The Sabbath

Bornu or Kanuri (Central Africa) Sibda or Sabbath

Fulfulde (Central Africa) Assebdu or Sabbath

Sonyal (Central Africa) Assebdu or Sabbath

Logone (Central Africa) Se-sibde or Sabbath

Wandals (Central Africa) Sidba or Sabbath

Bagrimma (Central Africa) Sibbedi or Sabbath

Maba (Central Africa) Sab. or Sabbath


Norman French (10th and 11th centuries) Seabedi, Samaday, Semadi or Sabbath Day

Ancient French (12 and 13th centuries) Samedi or Sabbath Day

D’oc. France (ancient and modern) Dissata, Dissate or Day Sabbath

Ecclesiastical Roman Sabatum

Parliamentary (British) Dies Sabbati

Basque (Spain and France) Larumbat or One Quarter (moon)

Finnish (Finland) Lauvantai or Corruptions of Icelandic Laugardagur

Estonian (Estonia) Lau-paaw or Bathday

Livonian (Baltic Russia) Puol-paava or Half Day

Lap (Laplanders, Norway) Lavardak or Corruption of Ice. Lang.

Morduin (Russia) Subbota, Suota or Sabbath

Tsheremissian (Russia) Kuks-keca or Dry-day (day without work)

Permian (Russia) Subota or Sabbath

Votiak (Russia)

Hungarian (Hungary) Szombat or Sabbath

Ostiac (Russia) Chotmetchatl or Sixth-day; AND Juolynchatl or Hinder end-day

Greek (Greece) (Sabbath)

Modern Greek (Greece) (Sabbath)

Latin (Italy) Sabbatum or Sabbath; AND Dies Saturni or Day of Saturn

Italian (Italy) Sabato or Sabbath

Spanish (Spain) Sabado or Sabbath

Portuguese (Portugal) Sabado or Sabbath

French (France) Samedi or Sabbath-day

Roman (Spain, Catalonia) Dissapte or Day-Sabbath

Wallachian (Romania or Wallachia) Sambata or Sabbath

Old High German (South Germany) Sambaztag or Sabbath’s day

High German (Germany) Samstag or Sabbath’s day

Icelandic (Iceland) Laugardagur or (of bath-day)

Swedish (Sweden) Lordag or Corruption of Icelandic Laugardagur

Danish (Denmark) Laverdag or Corruption of Icelandic Laugardagur

Old Slave (Bulgaria) Subbota or Sabbath

Russian (Russia) Subbota or Sabbath

Illyrian (Dalmatia, Serbia) Subota or Sabbath

New Slovenian (Illyrie in Austria) Sobota or Sabbath

Bulgarian (Bulgaria) Subbota or Sabbath

Polish (Poland) Sobota or Sabbath

Bohemian (Bohemia) Sobota or Sabbath

Lusatian (Saxony) Sobota or Sabbath

Polabic (borders of the Elbe) Subuta or Sabbath

Lithuanian (Lithuania) fubata or Sabbath

Prussian (Prussia; Germany) Sabatico or Sabbath

English Bible (England) The Seventh Day, The Sabbath

(Sirje) #66

Yes well, If you search EGW writings on the White Estate website you will find numerous references to the Sabbath being kept in the “new earth”. The specific references to Is 66 I found: Councils for the Church p.241.3, Desire Ages p.281, 283, to mention only two. There was another one HP (don’t know what that refers to) p. 288.5 plus others. She even quotes the whole text, including the new moon part, totally ignoring the fact that it’s there.

SDA Bible commentary often tries to “clean up” some of less scholarly SDA interpretations from EGW.

(George Tichy) #67

I wonder which calendar will be followed at that time.
I wonder what the “rest” will be about at that time.
I wonder if the Decalogue will still be a necessary reminder…

(Sirje) #68

OK, TonyR, what was the “new moon” holy day about that is cited, always in connection with the Sabbath in the OT?

(Frank Peacham) #69

I can keep the Sabbath, the 7th day, NOT because it is the exact day passed down from creation. Who really knows or can prove it? I keep the Sabbath as a reminder (Remember the Sabbath day) of its creation origin. That’s all.

I also have to adapt to my culture as to what it means “to keep it holy.” Since I don’t have manservants, cattle or fenced gates–I am no longer bound by exact laws of observance. I am free to rest and worship in spirit, not the letter.

It is a waste of time to focus my Sabbath observance fearing the Pope.

Like all celebrations of our time, we have no problem adjusting a birthday to another day for convenience. It seemed like ancient Israel could adjust the Passover, all depending on the barley harvest. Thus, a forced Sunday worship, has nothing to do with my spiritual life.


Hi Tony: The difficulty is finding any reference to an unbroken week prior to the Assyrian or Babylonian data. We don’t find any evidence of keeping an unbroken weekly cycle until much later. The reason it looks like the Jews adopted the Assyrian/Babylonian system is that a) They were in Babylon in the 600-500 BC time so they would have been under the Babylonian system, b) the Jewish calendar is lunar based, c) the feast days are all specified in the Babylonian method relative to the new moon, and typically on the same Babylonian Sabbaths, and d) methods of shifting Sabbaths and some Feast Days don’t show up in the bible at all, but do show up in Jewish texts AFTER the Jews adopt the Roman week (which is where the planet names for the days comes).

All that is needed is some historical document showing that a 7-day cycle was also running concurrently with the lunar weekly cycle, for example an historical event where it was noted that the day was day X on the lunar cycle and day Y on the weekly cycle. Such events SHOULD have been common in ancient Jewish history. The OT should be full of examples where the King set out to do something, then rested on the Sabbath of the 7-day cycle, then the next day was the 15’th of the month, etc. We should see all sorts of references to the King did such and such on the 4’th day of the Month of A, which a was a Sabbath. There are zero such occurrences noted in the OT. Instead, by the time the Roman week was employed in the ME, the Jews developed a method to shift their Feast days around the Sabbath of the now fixed weekly cycle. The Jews never invented a solar Calendar, that was the Romans, who finally tossed the Moon out. Once you toss the Moon, there is no reason NOT to have fixed weekly cycles, in fact, how can you not? Its either free running or synced to something, and if you toss the sync signal, you either find another, or just let it be cyclical.

(Frankmer7) #71

No one is arguing with anyone wanting to keep the Sabbath of their own volition, or according to their own conscience, including Paul. What he did argue for is that no one is to impose covenant regulations on anyone else as the condition for belonging to the people of God, and to be put right by and with God. This is the whole substance of Galatians. The flashpoint was circumcision. Food/kosher issues are also alluded to in the letter in Chapter 2, as well as some type of adoption of Jewish holy times, in Chapter 4. Adventism takes the stance that adhering to these latter two are necessary for acceptance and belonging by baptism. This seems to be totally at odds with what Paul was saying, and the unity and inclusiveness produced by the gospel he was preaching.




Sirje, nothing I could possibly write would satisfy you or anyone else here. Also I dont have all the answers; that was not the reason for my comment. Plus I probably should have waited till tomorrow to reply, it almost being 1 am here.


HawaiiTF, appantly people totally missed what I wrote or more importantly why I wrote it. It was not to give sufficient proof for why I believe what I do, but simply to say, what I did at the beginning of my comment:

“Everyone will site sources, and go to those that will advance their own beliefs. I can do that too”

And I did just that. Also it’s as though you completely ignored or missed what I quoted which goes against what you just wrote. Again, like I already said, We will go to those sources which agree with what we believe. You need to take it up with those I quoted.

(Sirje) #74

I didn’t mean to give you a hard time. Yes, there are all kinds theories and comments about ancient people told time, and how this seven day week came about. I can’t dal with all of them. Our issue here is, not how many ideas there are, but what the Bible says about it. The problem is, SDA story about the Sabbath is that it will be kept in forever, along with the new moon festival - which is ignored totally. The only reason for that festival was to start a new month. Have a restful night. I’m out in the garden planting stuff. :slightly_smiling_face:

I’m adding this, assuming you haven’t seen the post yet. For me the process goes like this -

-We read Isaiah 66 and that equates the new moon with the Sabbath.
-So we ask “what is the new moon thing, anyway”, not having heard anything about it.
-You find out it was a festival celebrating the beginning of a new month.
-A new month assumes a new series of weeks that are numbered, since that is how the Hebrews told time. They didn’t have names for their days.
-You know that they designating time by the name of the month + the number of the day (of that month).
-Ergo: the days must have started new, each month.
-How did they know when to start counting the days of the new month - the appearance of the new moon.


Not sure what you mean by that. I directly responded to a quote that claimed there were two problems, yet those are not valid problems at all. As I pointed out, there is no indication of a free running week prior to around the time of the Romans, so claiming its a problem that the lunar week needs to be reconciled against a free running claim for the Jewish week is nonsense. And with regards to name Sabbath, I don’t get that one at all because again, it seems to have Babylonian roots as well:

Further, reconstruction of a broken tablet[citation needed] seems to define the rarely attested Sapattum or Sabattum as the full moon. This word is cognate or merged with Hebrew Shabbat, but is monthly rather than weekly; it is regarded as a form of Sumerian sa-bat (“mid-rest”), attested in Akkadian as um nuh libbi (“day of mid-repose”). According to Marcello Craveri, Sabbath “was almost certainly derived from the Babylonian Shabattu, the festival of the full moon, but, all trace of any such origin having been lost, the Hebrews ascribed it to Biblical legend.”[7] This conclusion is a contextual restoration of the damaged Enûma Eliš creation account, which is read as: “[Sa]bbath shalt thou then encounter, mid[month]ly.”[1]

I originally started out on this topic from the staunchly SDA viewpoint. I used to tell my non-SDA friends that the weekly running 7-day cycle plus the alignment of Sabbath was actually “proof” of creationism and the historical accuracy of the Bible. Then I actually started looking at what the record is. I finally found a book, written by a Jewish individual, making the same arguments. You can get one yourself, but I’d suggest not wasting the money. The truth of the matter is, there is no historical documentation of a free running 7-day week until after the time of the Assyrian and Babylonian calendars, and their extensive documentation on the importance of 7-day cycles as initiated by the lunar cycle. And then Lev comes along and uses the SAME system. Now how did that happen?

(Cfowler) #76

Thanks Harry,

I looked up that verse on, and several different translations used the word “rest” instead of remnant. The KJ Version used “remnant”. I didn’t go through all the options…

19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that worked miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21And the rest were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is from the King James 2000 version. It seems that *the rest" in this verse is referring to those which had been deceived and had received the MOB and worshiped his image.

I enjoyed looking further into these verses.


Horns of yet another dilemma…or…???

Yeah…so Sirje and I have really been wondering what all this is about…for many years now.

The Lunar Sabbath & the SDA Church

The history of the lunar Sabbath teaching within the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the sad story of a cover-up spanning decades.

Heaven has tried many times to bring this truth to the world, but each time spiritual pride or fear of the consequences of accepting such a radically different truth has led the Church to reject it and, still more, to cover up the evidences in support of this truth.

In the mid-1990s, questions arising out of California and Washington regarding the concept of the lunar Sabbath prompted the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists (GC) to take action.

In 1995, an order originating from the office of then-GC president, Robert Folkenberg, Sr., commissioned a study group to look into the issue of calculating the Sabbath by the ancient Hebrew luni-solar calendar.

The committee members consisted of five scholars hand-picked from the seminary at Andrews University. In addition to these five, there was also a representative from the Ministerial Department of the North American Division (NAD) of Seventh-day Adventists and another representative from the Ministerial Department of the General Conference. Robert M. Johnston, professor of New Testament and Christian Origins at the seminary,
was selected to head this research committee. No representative from the Biblical Research Institute was on the committee as it was felt that the well-respected scholarship of the various members was of sufficient authority that it was not needed.

The vaults were thrown open for the committee. They were asked to research the Grace Amadon Collection (housed at the Center for Adventist Research at Andrews University) as well as the four volume series, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, by Leroy Edwin Froom. Additional material supplied the committee for study was a series of letters, written by well-respected Adventist scholar, M. L. Andreasen. A research paper on the subject by Elder J. H. Wierts was to be provided, but before it could be studied, something unexpected happened.

It had been expected that the committee would be able to very quickly refute the idea of a lunar Sabbath. What was not expected was what actually happened: as the committee members began studying into the subject, a number of them became convicted of its truth!

The fact is, the entire Seventh-day Adventist denomination was founded upon a belief that the 2300 day/year prophecy of Daniel 8:14 ended on October 22, 1844, as taught by the Millerite Movement of the 1840s. This is significant because the only way to arrive at that date is by using the ancient Biblical luni-solar calendar.

As far back as April, and then in June and December of 1843, and in February of 1844, months before [William] - Miller’s original date expired for the ending of the “Jewish year 1843” at the time of the vernal [spring] equinox in 1844 - his associates (Sylvester Bliss, Josiah Litch, Joshua V. Himes, Nathaniel Southard, Apollos Hale, Nathan Whiting, and others) came to a definite conclusion.

This was that the solution of Daniel’s prophecy is dependent upon the ancient or original Jewish form of luni-solar time, and not upon the altered modern rabbinical Jewish calendar. . . . They therefore began to shift from Miller’s original date for the ending of the 2300 years (at the equinox in March), over to the new moon of April, 1844. (Leroy E. Froom, The Prophetic Faith of Our Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 796.2)

Without the original luni-solar calendar, there would be no Day of Atonement on October 22 in 1844.

This ancient method of time-measurement was the very foundation for determining the time prophecy and the cleansing of the sanctuary doctrine which is the hallmark belief of the Seventh-day Adventist Church which grew out of the Millerite movement.

I don’t possess the smarts, or the scholarship, or the inside baseball to understand what is really going on here.

Seems like it could be important, though.

(This is post #77)

Evil: Ancient and Modern

Screenshot from my iPhone Moon Plus app just now:

(Steve Mga) #79

Revelation 19:21.
King James. "Remnant"
New International. "Rest"
Living Bible. "Entire army"
NRSV. “Rest”

(Cfowler) #80

I see that “remnant” isn’t always used in Rev 12:17 as well. Many translations use “the rest of her children”, or “rest of her offspring”. I didn’t look at all of them (there are lots of translations), but the several that I randomly looked at did not use the term “remnant”.