Change of Law?

(Kevin Seidel) #81

I think that is the abbreviation for In Heavenly Places.


All (most) English versions not including Clear Word…

Rev 12:17

Rev 12:19

(Sirje) #83

lI don’t either - just copied what was given with the quote. I hoped someone would know what that stands for. It can be checked out on the White Estate and search for “new moon” or Isaiah 66.

I misread your post. - sorry.

(Harry Elliott) #84

Interesting stuff. A problem with a lot of our peculiar doctrines is that our pioneers seem to have used interpretations that weren’t necessarily the ones intended. I think in such cases the resultant doctrines should always start with “MAYBE”. MAYBE Rev 12 means the REST (Bingo!) of her children who obey God’s instructions and preach the Gospel of Jesus. If Miller had emphasized the MAYBE part of a day equals a year, people might have been “ready” but not disappointed!

(Cfowler) #85

Paul, do you think that a lot, or some of the prophecies in Revelation, refer to Israel, not the Christian church?


Interesting day to ask, and I just did…

(Harry Elliott) #87

Indeed, and more than that. No contemporaneous documentation attests the existence of any 7-day week–anywhere–before Mesopotamia,ca, 700 B.C. Nevertheless an elegant “decoder” has been found that shows that the order of the days in the 7-day Roman calendar was derived from the pecking order of the gods of Mesopotamia nine centuries earlier). The modern Jewish calendar uses Babylonian month names. During the Exodus, God instructed Israel reckon the year from spring to spring, but since they returned from captivity, the have celebrated the New Year in the fall. Not a great “box score”.



A related issue that has always struck me is that Daniel & Co never had Sabbath problems in Babylon. Their problems with the King related to food edicts, and yet if there was a free running Sabbath, independent of the Babylonian lunar Sabbaths, then surely that would have been a far greater conflict. In fact, for modern observant Jews and SDA’s Sabbath observance is probably the most common conflict in trying to live in the modern world. Yet there is no record at all of Jews in Babylon having difficulty keeping Sabbath. Why is that?

Same for Esther BTW a bit later with the Persians. The issue in Esther is the failure to bow down to the king, never a mention of Sabbath conflicts. Again, why is that?

A very nice explanation is because there was no conflict…


Hi hawaiiTF,

I don’t know what else to write to you to make my intent clear. It was not to try and prove or disprove anything. You seem to have missed this. I’ll re-quote myself:

It, again, was not meant to change your mind, but, again, to show that there are counter arguments and that, “everyone will site sources, and go to those that will advance their own beliefs.”

Yes, and those I quoted provided counter-arguments, and give evidences for why. Now you reject their evidence, fine.

I need to provide no such thing. You’re the one who believes that they kept a lunar Sabbath, and then at some point in history changed it to the Roman one. In actual fact, it is you who needs to provide evidence, and not theories, as to when they changed it. My argument would be a much better one, in that, the reason we don’t find any writings from the Jews of that time having changed from one system to another, is because it never occurred. If they did, they would have recorded it, and you most certainly would have provided it.

I’ll end with this, and you can do what you like with it: To think that the Jews changed the Sabbath day of which we have 0 recorded evidence, requires more than faith. They had written laws for everything, and I mean everything. And yet, I’m to believe, they just maybe forgot to record this “little” detail, or didn’t think it important enough… come on. The Sabbath was the one area that they were the most strict on. I recall reading sometime ago, that the Jews believed the Messiah would only arrive after they have kept one Sabbath day perfectly.

At least with Christianity we have recordings of early Christians speaking of no longer keeping the “Jewish” Sabbath, and even a council on it: Council of Laodicea (cannon 29). Which expressly told Christians not to “judaize by resting on the Sabbath.” And yet, the Jews themselves, recorded nothing…


Not at all.

As they say, If you can’t handle the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

Also to your question about the new moon. My answer is, I don’t know. I would have to really dig into it to give a fair answer.

(Harry Elliott) #91

You are right, of course. These tired arguments are just blowing smoke. When Pharasees from Jerusalem went out into the Diaspora telling the Gentile converts they must obey the Law, Peter called the Law something “which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear.” (Acts 15:10 )

James’ response was just as emphatic “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS, saying, YE MUST be circumcised, and KEEP THE LAW: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT”. (Acts 15:24)

Clearly, the Gentile Christians were not keeping the Law or the Pharasee Christians wouldn’t have told them they needed to start. (That’s not rocket science.):wink:

Another argument for keeping the Law is that every Sabbath, Christians were in synagogue[!] Fortunately some translations make it clear that the particular text referred to isn’t talking about Gentile Christians.
We must remember that the Law of Moses has been preached in city after city for many years, and every Sabbath it is read when we Jews meet. (Acts 15:21 CEV)

A couple of other passages I think we usually miss:

To a congregation whose members are all Gentiles who are being conned into submitting to the initation rite (circumcision) that places them under the Law: " LEAVE THE LAW ALONE!"
9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe [seventh?] day[Sabbath]s, and months [new moon Sabbaths?], and times[seasonal Sabbaths?], and [Sabbatical?] years. (Gal 4:9,10)

To the Gentile members of a mixed congregation whose Jewish members are having trouble giving up the Sabbaths of the Law:" DON’T RUSH THEM. LET THEM CONTINUE TO SABBATIZE AS LONG AS THEY FEEL A NEED TO!"
5b…One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.__(Rom 14:5b, 6)

The fascinating thing here is that in Galatia, he’s deeply alarmed at observing holy days, whereas in Rome, “it ain’t no biggie”. But in neither case is he really a fan of holy days.

This is important stuff. It’s a shame that we systematically spin the message of Galatians.

I don’t think the ancient Jews had weeks on their calendars. Just think how full their houses would be with pottery Tishreis and Nisans. How could you make a calendar for next year if you don’t know in advance, which months have 30 days. Etc. The Bible mentions “seventh day” about three dozen times, but “seventh day of the week”: NEVER. When Jesus spoke of being raised on “the third day”, He didn’t mean the third day of the week. When the commandment says circumcise your new son on the eighth day, it can’t possibly mean the eighth day of the week. So where did we get the idea that “the seventh day” means the seventh day of the week"?

The Samoans know by now that there’s no way to know which day is in synch with the seventh day of creation week if God didn’t tell us where He put His date-line. And He didn’t. I’ve noticed that every commandment in the Bible to keep the seventh day holy always says to work six consecutive days first. Maybe the Jews didn’t have a problem because they had the opportunity to take their first sabbath immediately after working six or fewer consecutive days. Maybe God never criticized anyone in the Bible for observing Sabbath on the wrong day because His definition of the right day is more reasonable than ours.
Even a Cathholic who works six days (ANY six consecutive days) and takes the next day off is probably making that seventh day a legitimate Sabbath!

One last shot. I recently discovered that Sabbath begins at sundown only on the ninth day of the seventh month.(Lev 23:32) Evidently, we’re just as blinded by tradition as everybody else.


Jesus was talking about who?

“Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:…” Matt 5:19
"And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition." Mk 7:9 (of SUNday church service)

99% of Christianity is deceived because of modern Pharisees

“For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.” Rom 8:7

(Frankmer7) #93

In Mt. 5:19, Jesus was saying this in the context of his teachings in the sermon on the mount. His teachings address far more than the ten commandments, and he never mentions the Sabbath in it. In fact, his teachings are the very commandments he is talking about…such as do to others as you would have them do to you, or love your enemies. Far more than the ten words.

You read within the proof texting tradition of Adventism and much of Protestantism. Maybe you need to check your own blinders, as well.


(Harry Elliott) #94

I’m sorry Barry, but Wilsons of whatever name tend to dry lab to whatever conclusions they feel support the status quo. I’ve heard that from church officials whom I can trust , and I’ve seen it myself. Not all men who achieve ecclesiastical power lose their integrity, but the casualty rate is disappointing.

(Allen Shepherd) #95
  1. Romans 7:7 "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” (So, yes, in this passage, the “law” is the decalogue, but in other places, it can mean different things.)

  2. One of the strongest arguments for the Sabbath is Romans 7 and 8. In Romans 7, the 10 commandments are given as the arbiter of what sin is. Then, in Romans 8:7 and 8, Paul says, “…the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.”

Now, if the sinful mind is hostile to God and does not submit to God’s law (the one noted in Romans 7), then what does the mind submitted to the Spirit do?

Certainly not the same as the sinful mind.

Thus Sabbath Keeping is supported by Paul.

The discussion of law in Romans 7 and 8 is complex, for Paul uses the word very creatively, that is, in differing contexts, he uses it to mean different things. (ie. the law of sin and death, the law of the Spirit fo Life).

However, it is clear that the standard for righteousness is the 10 commandments in these chapters.

(Allen Shepherd) #96


Jesus in the Sermon, clarifies the commandments to show just how deep they go. Not mere outward observation is adequate. He does not mention the Sabbath, nor idols, nor honoring father and mother. Does that mean he did not believe they needed to be kept? Of course not. He took some and showed how ALL should be viewed. And he goes beyond them, but certainly does not encourage omission of them! (There is a very good statement of how Jesus viewed the 5th Commandment in Mark 7:9-13.)

Then, in several other contexts, he does mention how the Sabbath was to be honored, and did so pretty often. And he had a liberal attitude. He healed, and preached, and allowed the Disciples to “reap”, making allowances for human needs. He rebuked his enemies for their rigid ways. (Mark 3:5). But he never said to stop keeping it. He, on the other hand, showed how TO keep it.

One Sabbath, some hears ago, I invited a Jewish young man to speak on Israel for a Sabbath afternoon meeting (the local synagogue had sent a letter saying such were available, and it sounded good). He gave an interesting talk, but afterward we had a brief discussion about the Sabbath. He noted that we were not keeping it, as we had a potluck with cooked food, that is we cooked some food for the potluck (we heated or put stuff in the oven, most was already partially cooked at least).

For him, we had broken the Sabbath. Adventists keep Sabbath differently than observant Jews (although this fellow was not one).

Why is that? Because we have Jesus as our guide to Sabbath keeping rather than the Pharisaic-Talmudic teachings on the matter. There is a sense that our Sabbath keeping is unique, for our fellow Christians do not keep Sabbath, and we keep it differently than observant Jews do.

(Allen Shepherd) #97

Thank you for your insightful comments on the Sabbath and on how we all think. You made out a very pertinent point.

(George Davidovich) #98

"What else do we think Jesus would do in that religious and cultural context?

Frank, my original reply to you was to comment on your point that Jesus obeyed the law because of His religious and cultural background. The text you mis-quoted to suppport your argument is actually saying that Jesus was born as we (humans) are, “from a woman, under the law” .

“To say that this means that Jesus was born or lived under the Law’s condemnation or curse is not something I believe is true, nor what the passage is saying.”

It is not clear to me what you are saying here together with the next comment below where you actually accept that Jesus “died under the law’s condemnation… to redeem those under the law”. Jesus being born as a human put Him “under the law” . If He had not been born as a human he could not have redeemed the humann race.

I actually do believe that the heavy SDA emphasis on clean/unclean food is not one of our better strengths, but then you are mixing this up with “obserance of divine time” to make an understated point that perhaps we are not required to keep the law (10 Commandments)? Would your argument work the same way if instead of the 4th Commandment you picked the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, Etc. Etc.?

I think we have to be very careful with not to obscure the importance of God’s Law by throwing in Jewish ceremonial laws and ordinances that were intended as symbols or foreshadows of the Messiah to come. He has come and we should try to follow His example by walking as He walked (I John 2:6).
“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me” (John 10:27)

(Florin Laiu) #99

After Hillel II authorized changing the Sabbath observance Encyclopedia Biblica (MacMillan Co. 1899):

This is phantasy, Sirje! If it is so true, why don’t you find a contemporary encyclopedia, not one of 120 years ago. Moreover, the truth about God’s order is not to be found in encyclopedias, but in thw Bible first. If you consult a contemporary encyclopedia, it will ”inform” you that the Jews inherited the week and the Sabbath in the Babylonian exile, since Babylonians observed some bad days each month on the dates of 7, 14 and 21.

It is simply not true that Hillel II authorized the changing of the Sabbath from the lunatic to the continuous weekly cycle. Traditionally, Hillel II is credited to have established the Jewish fixed calendar. But the present evidence is that the Jewish fixed calendar appeared much later in the 9th century CE.

There is much earlier evidence that the Jews followed a continuous weekly cycle. Read at least Daniel 10:2-4, 13. Daniel fasts three full (whole) weeks, namely 21 days, and these three weeks (21 days) end up in the 24th day of the first month (Nisan). Then read the works of Philo and Josephus. They knew only the continuous weekly cycle. If the Jewish week were wrong, Jesus would surely warn us.

(Tim Teichman) #100

Here’s a very informed article for reference: