Confounding Conundrums: A Response to Mark Finley’s ‘Mystical Myths’ Article

(Thomas J Zwemer) #41

Adventism is the product of a myth. Rather than Christ as the foundation it has resorted to policy. Over the front exit doors of the Old EMC chapel was the banner “The Gospel into all the World in This Generation”. I read that from the fourth grade on through two years of college until called to get MacArther back to the Philippines. I had the good pleasure to worship in an Adventist Church on Panay. The congregation was mostly women. So I am amazed that the Third World is so against to ordination of women. I found that true in Mexico and several Latin American Islands.

What is needed is to have an investigative reporter to interview the wives of those delegates that voted against ordination of women.

(Thomas J Zwemer) #42

Mark was correct in turning to myths. Adventism is a construct of myths. It is based upon two myths, One of Wm Miller and the other of John Wesley. Even after Aldersgate John held to a final generation that was clear of any known sin. He never abandoned his Holy Club Views. The Corn Field View was the peg that resolved the hopelessness created by the Great Disappointment. We are living in a swirling malstrom of fear, hate, and ethnic passion, far worse than the run up of WWII. To add a layer of conformity on God fearing people is the most insidious form Of hysteria.

(Sirje) #43

We have a tendency of understanding the Bible literally (until it doesn’t work for our SDA narrative). We plaster the three angles, instead of the cross, all over our identifying literature; and we identify “Babylon” specifically as the Catholic Church. Babylon is a power - a mindset - and the call to “come out of Babylon” is a call out of a man-made ecclesiastical power. The call out of Babylon is directed toward the professed people of God - and that includes the SDA church.


I am very encouraged by yours and other fellowship :slight_smile:

(Kim Green) #45

"It would appear that Mark Finley is convinced that Ted Wilson’s dog speaks English."

LOL…as long as it isn’t speaking in “Tongues”- it still should be fine. :wink:


LOL! (20 characters!)


10/28/18 - #7

I resemble that remark! Hmmph! :imp: :zap:


10/28/18 - #8

…or…if your entire church family is bordering on delusional…folie a famille

(Kim Green) #49

In what way? :thinking::grinning:

(Kim Green) #50

Sorry…still don’t “get” it, Cass. :slight_smile:


10/28/18 - #9/9

Just kidding about “tongues”—praying in tongues…which is remarkably freeing, by the way… :slight_smile:

Days like these
I can’t even speak like
La la la la la la la la la la

Ooh, let your body talk
Even when you feel so lost
Spinning when the tears
They fall, you gotta just let it go

Ooh, let your body talk
Even when you feel so lost
Spinning when the tears
They fall, you gotta just let it go

Let your body talk

We Adventist-types think in such tight little categories, don’t you think?

It’s a Confounding Conundrum!

Hold that thought…I’ll be back after my vacation…not a Spectrum-facilitated vaca-shun… :wink:

:wave: :hugs:

(Kim Green) #52

Enjoy your vaca, Cassandra. :wave::sun_with_face::sunglasses:

(Steve Mga) #53

Not ALL African Denominations believe about Women like SDAs do.

At Sunday church we had a Bishop visit us whose home country is Ghana.
After services I asked him a few questions about Anglicans and Women in Africa.
He is originally from Ghana. He said Anglicans in AFRICA had Ordained women
Priests in Ghana 7 years ago.
He stated there were also Anglican Women Priests in South Africa, Kenya,
Uganda. Possibly other African countries.

I report this to let US SDA’s know that NOT ALL African Christians believe about
women like the Seventh day Adventist church Leaders and Members do.

(Red Livingstone) #54

As far as Anglican Women Priests, there are more countries that recognize women’s ordination than don’t, many since the 70’s. (Episcopal church in the US) And yes, most countries in Africa, except Central African Republic recognize God’s call and anointing of women to the priesthood. One of my colleagues is a female Zimbabwean priest, currently ministering in New Zealand.

(2nd Opinion) #55

It’s sad to see Mark Finley prostitute his considerable talents like this. Not the way you want Adventist history to remember you, Mark. These final acts of yours on behalf of a misguided administration will sadly overshadow your evangelistic legacy.

(Eric Webster) #56

Mark Finley is a godly man and I am sure as he takes time to think and pray, the Holy Spirit will lead him to realise that he made a wrong choice in supporting the current leadership in their slide towards hierarchical dominance akin to that of the medieval church.


Serje #42
Good point re. Babylon being a “mind set” - a world view; a life style; a set of values,
actions and dispositions; beliefs etc. - Simultaneously, it can be personified by literal
(concrete) bodies, organizations and/or churches.
The latter’s ‘concreteness’ usually provides substance to the former’s abstractness,
but merely focusing on the literal often results in skimming the surface and missing
the deeper, real point.
An emphasis on a literal or ‘flat’ reading of Scripture is usually favored by concrete
thinkers, a tendency to which you refer. The dangers of this tendency have become
obvious in regards to WO, which also points to the need for clear hermeneutics in
interpreting Scripture.

(Tim Teichman) #58

They already have and we do. Approved by Sir Ted himself.

Here’s a question: How is the Sabbath determined? Does it follow 6 days of work? Or is it nor more than 6? The bible clearly says that it is to follow 6 days of work. What if you only work once in awhile? Can you have more sabbaths if you feel like it? Say, work three days then take a rest day on the fourth, early (rest, and only rest being the way we are commanded to keep the sabbath holy.) What if taking a rest day more often is even better?

Is the sabbath determined by local governments?

Is it determined by the local passing of time, or by counting sunsets and sunrises, or for each individual based on their personal-local passage of time? For example, if you fly around the world and you lose a day, then should you have a sabbath anyway based on the local calendar, after only 6 days, or should you wait a day even though you’ll then be out of step with the locals? If you travel the other way so that you get an extra day, then can you work 7 days straight and then have a sabbath on the 8th day?

What if you’re spending time on the international space station orbiting the earth 16 times in 24 hours? Do you still count the sunsets to determine days? Your days are only 90 minutes long, so you’d end up with short little sabbaths twice in a 24 hour period. If that’s wrong, then what is Sabbath based on when you’re in space? Jerusalem time as in the bible? Just pick a random time zone?

Even more ‘out there’, literally, what if you’re on a spaceship heading for Mars? No days. No sunsets. And then when you get to Mars, where the days are 25 hours long, then what? After a few years it seems you’d be running a sort of sabbath deficit after all those extra hours add up.

While all this sounds silly, in fact Sir Ted has taken a stand and indicated that Sabbath is based on your local personal experience of days passing. Using the Samoan example, where the local government decided that tomorrow would suddenly be the day after tomorrow, a correct thing for an Adventist to do is to start worshiping on Sunday, since the local’s personal experience was that Sunday would then be seven days after their last sabbath, which was on a Saturday. I doubt he thought very much about the implications of this idea.

And, how does Ted and the church know this didn’t happen before, sometime in the last 4000 years? What if we have the day wrong and what was once Saturn’s day is now Thor’s day?

In any case, the biblical sabbath is neither on Saturn’s day nor on Sun’s day, since neither of those days existed in bible times and the Israelites and Jews of Jesus day used a lunar calendar and worked out the sabbath in a completely different way, where the sabbath restarted each month on the first day of the month, on the first day of each lunar cycle, the new moon. In bible times, the sabbath was defined as falling on the new moon day, then every 7 days until the month restarted.

Since the lunar month is a little more than 29 1/2 days long, their calendar of months consisting of full days had months either 29 or 30 days long. And since the first day of each lunar month was a sabbath (indeed a high sabbath) there was no sabbath that could fit on a Roman calendar with weeks and land on the same day of the week each month, and it didn’t until the 4th century when the Jews changed how they calculated the sabbath under decree from the emperor.


Now there is a good one to start with:

“For example, if the constituents of a specific region decided that Sabbath was Sunday, would we allow them to go forward as Seventh-day Adventists?”

Does the SDA Church actually have an official position on where the God ordained dateline should be, and on what biblical basis is this position founded? You might be aware that there actually is some local debate on that subject by some churches in the vicinity of the dateline. It should not take too much brain power to understand that the Church is unlikely to step into that debate, because it would expose the whole house of cards for what it is.

(Tim Teichman) #60

Well, the Trans Pacific Union already did and they are allowed to continue. Even blessed by Ted. Many in Samoa now worship on Sunday.