Connection to Draconian Uganda Bill Raises Questions about Adventist Leadership

Spectrum Website
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A commentary by Loren Seibold for Adventist Today, “My Church Supports the Killing of LGBTQ People in Uganda,” horrified yet did not surprise me. Adventism has a record of racism and intolerance. In the 1890s, a young mixed-race woman was not permitted in the same classrooms as white students. More recently, there is the story of a student at Southern Adventist University who came out as transgender in 2022 and immediately left the university. My own story dates to the early 1980s, when I attended what was then Southern Missionary College, where I was discriminated against for being gay. (You can read about my story in an article I wrote for Adventist Today). There is a persistent effort to punish and abolish diversity by many past and current Seventh-day Adventist administrators.

This is a companion discussion topic for the original entry at https://spectrummagazine.org/views/2023/connection-draconian-uganda-bill-raises-questions-about-adventist-leadership
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Thanks James for your thoughts. As a church representing Jesus on earth, it must be beyond question and its actions and teachings must be beyond question. Totally transparent. It seems like there are so many questions and very few answers. This makes the church look very suspicious that it is not truly representing Jesus. We must have answers and in order to have answers that satisfy the questions we have, a conversation is necessary. We don’t want to be told what to believe. We aren’t stupid. We must have honest dialog to find answers to our questions. At some point our patience runs out.

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“As a church representing Jesus on earth, it must be beyond question and its actions and teachings must be beyond question.” Wouldn’t it take a lot of compromise to reach that goal? Jesus himself didn’t reach it.

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[quote=“simpleman, post:3, topic:23902, full:true”]
“As a church representing Jesus on earth, it must be beyond question and its actions and teachings must be beyond question.” Wouldn’t it take a lot of compromise to reach that goal? Jesus himself didn’t reach it.

Very true; Jesus gave us a good start, and from there on we have to figure things all out, in our own time/cultures. It DOES take compromise - a positive word which describes the only way we can exist on earth with others, because we are selfish beings. I have to compromise in my (poor, pitiful, limited) understanding of many things to accommodate you and your (poor, pitiful, limited) understanding, always putting love, patience and fellowship forward. Life would be a constant, angry battle without compromise. As Paul Simon once sang “I like to sleep with the window open, you like to sleep with the window closed, so goodbye, goodbye, goodbye.”
It would take so little for the GC to issue a statement that what Uganda is doing in no way reflects the attitudes of the church or Jesus. It would take a little more effort to kick the Ugandan admin VP off the council - then he could be speaking/acting as a private citizen without it reflecting on his church

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Religion aside…yet another SDA bad PR move.

Reminds me of this famous quote:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

~Martin Niemöller

The only small comfort that I have is that Adventism has relegated itself into staying a small and fairly insignificant denomination with their silence(s) on such important humanitarian/religious issues. So be it.

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I agree, Kim; that said, when “they” come for the adventists, it was already prophesied that the little flock would be persecuted, and the end is near because of it - so Yay! It’s all coming true. Dear oh dear, it must be hard being the center of the universe…

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…holding up the Universe with unmitigated arrogance…yes, a “burden”.

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That would require that the GC is not complicit with what the Ugandan admin VP said. Unfortunately, I believe that Ted and his merry bunch of men believe exactly what he said.

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Oh boy ! - - "Symposium zum Thema LGBTQ und Adventgemeinde " - Kassel, Kongress Palais , 17. - 19. 11. 2023. Veranstalter : Freikirche der Sienenten - Tags - Adventisten, Norddeutscher Verband / Süddeutscher Verband - - - -

I will be there - seats for 300 attending !

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Question: Why would a gay/homosexual individual press this situation with the Bible believing SDA administration that uses the Bible as a guideline for christian living.

Noted texts in bother the Old Testament Lev 13:22 and 20:13 along with New testament references (1Cor 6:9 and 1Tim 1:10) as noted below:

Lev 18:22; You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
Lev 20:13: If a man lies with a male as he does with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination. They shall be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.
1Cor 6:9 Do you not know that the unrightious will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulators nor homosexuals, nor sodomites.
1 Tim 1:9,10; knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly… For Fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine

Comment; It is a satanic inspiration for an individual with homosexual and gay sexual orientation or activity to press their life style on an individual or organization that used the Bible as their text book for life and has not desire to be associated with an abomination. This is an “IN YOUR FACE” intent to cause strife.

HOWEVER: If that individual is intent of abandoning the sinful lifestyle and is eager to seek forgiveness and live as God intended then 1John 1:9 and grace is the start— the change of life style is the proof of a Christ working and the change is a reflection of God’s grace and the new life provided by a Great and loving creator.

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Got to love ‘text splatter’, my favorite ‘proof’ method to ‘eternal life’!!!

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@RLLJ RE: Question: Why would a gay/homosexual individual press this situation with the Bible believing SDA administration that uses the Bible as a guideline for christian living.

You could ask the same question of slave-owners who use the bible to support slavery, since it doesn’t condemn slavery and in fact gives regulations for slave ownership - different if you own a human from your own country or a foreigner - and it tells slaves to be loyal to their masters and to be comforted in the fact that they’ll have a better life in heaven. Why would anyone suggest that enslaving humans is bad?

You could ask the same question of a father who wants to sell his teenage daughter into white slavery, as prescribed in the bible. Why would you suggest that is bad?

Or of a man that intends to take is deceased brother’s wife as his own second wife, as prescribed in the bible. Why would you suggest that’s not right? I mean, if he doesn’t take his sister-in-law as a second wife, that would be a sin.

Or of a man or woman who, after a previous divorce, decides to get married and so live in a perpetual state of sinful adultery, as taught by Jesus in Mark. We really should change our church rules to avoid any second marriages - and perhaps void all those marriages, shouldn’t we? You know, to comply with biblical teachings?

Also, for some reason the church says that incest is bad. Not sure why as the Genesis account indicates it’s just fine: Cain and Abel must have married their sisters, and their children must have married either their siblings or their cousins. Noah’s grandchildren must have married either their siblings or their cousins. Abraham married his half-sister when there were many other women around - and then twice sold her into white slavery to different rulers, after lying and saying she was his sister and omitting the fact that she was also his wife. Both times he made off like a bandit with new cattle, donkeys, male and female slaves, and camels. And 25 lbs of silver for her on the last occasion! So, good on him! Why does the church forbid incest when the bible clearly describes it as normal?

Also, concubines. Why does the church not allow concubines? Abraham raped the slave girl/concubine Hagar that Sarah ‘gave’ him in order to have a son, who was later blessed by Yahweh. And then after Sarah died had six more sons with one of his favorite concubines, Keturah. Then later he sent the sons of all his concubines away - including Keturah’s sons. It seems contrary to bible teachings to suggest we shouldn’t have concubines. Yahweh approved of Abraham’s concubines and their sons. We should really tell the church leaders…

Yes, we really should follow all of the teachings in the bible, which collectively amount to a guide for christian living.

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Thanks to Spectrum and AT for reporting on this social justice issue in Uganda. And, further, both publications are editorially outspoken in upholding the equality of our LGBTQ+ church members and all humans. Particularly Spectrum provided stellar leadership on this equality issue years ago, when gay rights were much less acceptable.

Current church leadership is sadly far behind the arc of history and justice on this issue of human equality.

Happily, such has not always been the case with Adventist church leadership. Consider this: Joseph Bates, considered by George Knight to be the true founder of our denomination, risked life and limb in fighting for racial equality over 150 years ago.

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How can a person born with the “wiring” of a gay brain, or for that matter, someone who was born with both male and female genitals, which is true of over 6 million people on the earth right now, be a sinner for simply being born that way? If there ever was a reason to turn from a God that would do this…this is surly it. But bible writers were not word inspired and many things in scripture has been proven to be scientifically wrong.

But you go ahead and keep judging them…the bible makes is very clear that you will be surrounded by a lot of goats because you are stepping into a position that is only reserved for God. Good luck with that on judgment day. Notice I said JUDGMENT DAY, that is the day God, not you, judges.

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What a brilliant way to show that scripture has obvious human flaws built into it. Thanks, I plan to cut and paste that response in my documents file for future reference.

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Thanks! It’s literally just the tip of the iceberg - what I could conjure up from memory. I just added a couple more for your enjoyment.

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Well, we also have Jesus himself declaring in Matth 19 : 4 - 6 - - - -and him ( ! ) giving respect to those being simply “other” - Verse 15 (" not apt for marriage" = just not fit for the “family values lifestyle” - - -

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Please do not take the KJV - with the reformed versions - as an ultimate thruth teller !

  1. Cor 6 . 9. - “homosexuals” = ASENOKOITAI = “male” + " chamber" = OK, “sleeping” with a male.
    “sodomites” MALAKOI = “softies”

according to Philo alexandrinus in Sec Leg III this depicts a special form of teenager boys prostitution in the cities around the Aegaean Sea. Wealthy “elderly gentlemen” and their “friends”, teenager boys, effeminated, powder faces, hairdo, luxurious demeanor, jewelry, idleness - - -

So what “sodomites” ???

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And “lifestyle” ??? - - - Our “Christian” environment for a long tomime has made the “orientation” - this specific attraction to the other - or the same - gender already as something sinful ! But the “orientation” does not imply a “lifestyle” - in very many - maybe until now - the most cases a lifelong camouflage had been practized, full of fear and anxiety for it once accidently reveiling the true attitudes - - - -

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My favorite phrase is the term “non biblical”.

Flush toilets are “non biblical”.

But I prefer that we don’t turn the clock all the way back and go “all in” on that, and lots of other, biblical “wisdom”, please….

:wink:

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