Connection to Draconian Uganda Bill Raises Questions about Adventist Leadership

In John 8:7 the Master teacher said clearly, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.”
When will Christianity live by the principles taught by the Son of God? When will the SDA Leadership who claim to live by higher standards successfully teach members to live the life of Christ in all things?

It becomes quite obvious by the silence of the GC Leadership, there is no love lost. For such a remarkable loveless set of standards as God’s highest example on earth, the reality is we are merely poor, blind & naked.


Dear James—
As a member of the SDA Church, I ask in all sincerity for your forgiveness for turning my back too often on this group of overlooked dear children of God.
Although I just read your thought provoking appeal in Spectrum, to the leadership of the SDA Church including the various Divisions, Unions, Conferences, and down to the local members of communities— I couldn’t agree more. As a matter of fact, it would be very beneficial to both sides if we as a Church were more Christ like in word and especially in deed!
In large part we as a Church have miserably failed generations of youth of the LGBQT by not listening to their attempts to communicate their concerns, feelings and views. If we don’t learn a valuable lesson in listening, we will lose many, many more in our persistent neglect.

Both my wife and I were once previously married & divorced to other spouses before we met & later married. But I can’t imagine the difficulty it has been physically, mentally and spiritually to constantly hit a brink wall time and again— only because the one you love is not currently accepted by-in-large within the SDA community of believers. It’s suggestive we are too busy in trying to save ourselves, while on the other hand hanging on to cherished sins. A bit hypocritical of us to knowingly hang on to cherished sins but you can’t have the one you Love!

It’s also suggestive, of fearing of contaminating ourselves in the service of showing the very characteristics of Christ for those hurting and in need. As a Church it appears we apparently refuse to acknowledge Christ was never contaminated by a leper nor death.
However personally tragic it has been— sadly, there may be those who are afraid of what to say, or what the Church may say if any were to simply treat you as another brother or sisters in Christ. It is Christ who knows our hearts— obviously, not the leadership; they don’t even know their own.

Again, my apologies. As I live and breathe, I will allow His Spirit to both nurture & complete in me a compassionate love for all mankind who are different than me whether skin deep, or a religious creed— for all have fallen short of the glory of God.

As a new creature in Him, I will learn to Love as compassionately as He has Loved me; for it is my duty to fulfill His Will in all things.


Today in our daily hectic & tragic world, my comfort in life is in growing to ‘know’ my Savior, as He “knows” me. For it is NOT the Vatican, nor the SDA Church who holds the keys to His Kingdom. But it is within my personal grasp to humble myself & ask for the “Mind of Christ” to daily enter into the inner sanctum of my polluted temple, in order to cleanse me from all unrighteousness in making me whole again.

Just like any other sinner, I stumble and fall; but my Father in heaven is very patient with me as any parent is with their learning child. For He doesn’t stand by and watch me fall, then throw shades of silent condemnation my way. But He dearly loves me— this I know!

With a daily invitation I am assured of His indwelling presence, as the Spirit of the Lord teaches me of His “Will.” As I put into practice His biddings, He cleanses the Sanctuary in the Most Holy Place of my soul— wherein He places His Mercy Seat & promises to forever abide and guide me into His Truth of Love & compassion for all mankind.

In the compassionate Love and Grace of our risen Lord; “the Christ, the Savior of the world” (John 4:42), may we forever by guided by “His still small voice” in love for all; into endless eternity—

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What I find interesting in your statements is the level of loathing and fear of homosexuals. You claim “satanic inspiration” is behind every individual who is not heterosexual and back this up with scripture that you have cherry picked out of context and bereft of the original meaning of the writers. It is ironic that you who claim the believe in the Bible are so ignorant of it. Not even the devil used the Bible to tempt Jesus in such an outlandish manner as you in an effort to condemn non-heterosexuals.


Your condemnation, using scripture, doesn’t mention the fact that there are millions of individuals on the earth today who have 100% proof that they were born as transexuals. They have external genitals or internal organs that are opposite of their body presentation. This is very well documented. It is an absolute, and the two biblical authors, Moses and Paul, had no knowledge or understanding of these FACTS, are the very ones you now quote, even though they still believed in a flat earth and that the sun revolved around our earth, and a ton of other non-scientific facts that we know are simply wrong. I have tried to point this out on this site numerous times. I guess you probably don’t want to acknowledge that this exists.

This gives you and every other holier-than-thou reader of this, one of two options. You get to choose whether God would punish someone for how they were born into this world, or you can accept that there are people who, are simply living with the realities they were born with. You don’t get the option to decide whether they are loved and accepted by God. That is only up to Him. You can condemn them at your own pearl, but in doing so, you bring judgment on yourself. And yes, the vast majority of the LGBTQ community do not have physical aspects of their being that prove they were born this way, this is true. But when you have millions of people who are born, unquestionably, with physical characteristics that prove beyond any doubt that they were born this way. Any thinking person would be able to extrapolate that the human brain, the most complex organ in the body, could also be effected by anomalies which define what gender a person truly is or what gender they would be attracted to. Just because medical science has not yet been able to determine what causes these characteristics, does not, in anyway, negate the fact that they exist. This is the reason God told you that judging is above your paygrade. Maybe, someday science will confirm why some people, without physically defined characteristics, are born this way, but it was painfully obvious that Moses and Paul didn’t have any knowledge of the realities of this. Like so many other Levitical admonitions that have been abandoned by everyone except very orthodox Jews, the sexual prohibitions in Levitical law probably make as much sense as a man wearing their sideburns down to their shoulders or the wearing of clothing with two different types of yarn or your being condemned to the fires of hell because of the pigskin wallet your carrying around in your pocket. Please look at timteichman’s list of ridiculous things which are all found in scripture. Like he said, he only touched on a few. Remember, Paul described himself as a Jew’s Jew. He was a pharisee with very strict Levitical understandings. He interjected his own personal views in a number of places in his letters, he even said so in several places, and the fact that these letters were written by him for specific churches he had established, may point out that he wrote them, not necessarily, to become cannon law, but letters, which is what they were. Jesus never speaks about the LGBTQ community even though He had to have encountered many of them in his ministry. He even spoke of the eunuchs who were “born this way”. And said that they would be in the kingdom. But in all cases, in every instance, we are admonished not to judge. That is a sin and it may be connected to the original sin, which was pride. Perhaps, pride is our thinking we know better, are better, or wiser, or even that we should “play God”. Leave that to God and simply do what He told us. Love one another. And let God do what only He can do.


@lynden williams : “He even spoke of the eunuchs” - -

An explanatory translation of Matth 19 : 12 - " not apt for marrying " - - - (so our minister Raimund Fuchs)

@RLLJ- please differ :slight_smile:

Unsually and worldwide the male / female qestion at ones birth is settled by - looking at the antomy. Inhibitions - delays - in embryonal life result in - - a look evaluated as “female” . And one is registered as “Ruth” or “Erika” - -

The inward “pattern” - see the case of Erik(a) Schnegger in Google - yet is male and the specific
attraction to the Girls will arise once - -

And we have “inward patterns” in “normal” male or female bodies - they then being attracted , even under seduction - like Ron Woolsley - by the “same” gender - - - - (when I myself questio my “awakening” - well, as a preschoolchild I already was fascinated - by the drawings of two girls in childrens story books !)

This should be studied furtheron by people who are able to coduct interviews and set up questionairies and measure the “attrction” by slideshows / computer assisted , with polygraphy - -

    • -and then we earnestly and without the accusations out of our phantasies we could / should speak about “free chioce” versus “personal fate” - - -

- -without the evaluation Paul in Romans 1 spoke on those upper class adults deliberately falling into luxurious polymorphous promiscuity in Caracalla - Therme of Rome - - (who did read Martial or Juvenal except Roy Bowen Ward - and me ???

- without condemning, maybe with gentle advice to - - celibacy ??? (Please : Gentle advice !!!)

You condemed yourself. I asked the question as to why you would be antagonistic and in their face to a group of people or organization that uses the Bible as a guide and rule book for moral and standard of social protocol. Appears that you are intent on implementing your social standards on others. You appear to be forcing the issue of your freedom on others while denying them their freedom. Note I did and do not deny you the freedom to summarize an epistle of excuses. I merely asked why you are being rude to others that do not believe as you do. The Bible notations I included are the reply to the question that you indicated were unanswered.

i think the GC’s silence on this situation in Uganda is an opportunity lost, in addition to being unfortunate…undoubtedly the object of a policy of silence is to avoid possible complications with both the Ugandan Adventist Church and the Ugandan government, on the one hand, and the unintended perception that our policy against LGBT is softening, on the other…but the effort to avoid offence or misunderstanding has resulting in the definite perception that our Church is not against the use of government to enforce essentially religious beliefs when they align with ours…i cannot imagine a result more incongruent with our priority of separation of Church and State, and the protection of our own religious freedoms, especially in view of our distinctive eschatology beliefs…

what the GC should have done, or should be doing, in my view, is clarify that the Ugandan Church, and much less the Ugandan state, is not acting with the approval or blessing of our Church…this would allow a statement to the effect that although we don’t approve of LGBT, we don’t believe in persecuting those who disagree with us, and that Church membership and employment isn’t contingent on LGBT beliefs (i think this does need to become our official position)…the way things are now, particularly among those aware of TW’s alliance with Africa with respect to WO, it looks like Africa is running our Church, for better or for worse, simply because our Church is growing more rapidly in Africa than elsewhere…i think this makes our GC look weak, rather than prudent…

effective leadership, in terms of engendering respect, does call for leading clearly when there are risks for misperception and disagreement…the fact that the GC apparently isn’t interested in or capable of offering such leadership isn’t a good sign…with everyone from the pope to Blinken to Prime Minister Trudeau clearly condemning Uganda’s new gay law, the GC’s silence isn’t acceptable…while prudence is always a value, political convenience, amounting to cowardice, isn’t what we want to see in our Church…it had no place in our pioneer Church, when our prophet was living…

Now you are giving speeches and ignoring the content of the reply.

But let’s break down what you are saying:
a) You advocate the freedom from LGBTQ+ persons. Not only that, you advocate denying them the same rights to speech and the pursuit of happiness and protections under law that heterosexuals enjoy. From a Constitutional perspective, you have now denied a minority group their rights as citizens. There are many in our society whose social standards differ from ours more than the LGBTQ+ do. The trouble is, you think their existence among us is an existential crisis. Your reaction has a word for it, ‘bigotry’. Our society has, in our lifetime, begun to address this bigotry towards LGBTQ+ and this seems to annoy you. You opine the good old days, when LGBTQ+ were invisible and suffered silently from bigotry. You seem to want to deprive LGBTQ+ their rights of liberty and human dignity which God assigns to all people. Remember that when you remove freedom and human dignity from one citizen or a group of them, you diminish it for us all. You can’t expect to enjoy freedom, when you deny it from others.

b) The Papacy used the same logic as you to deny human rights and human dignity in their bloody past. Many of the early Adventists also used the Bible to justify bigotry against black persons (some still do) or the idea of “Manifest Destiny” of the white race. In the same way, you and likeminded persons have used a superficial reading of the Bible to justify bigotry towards LGBTQ+. You ignore medical science and the relationship between body and brain that has been discovered. You justify your opinion by quoting scripture stripped of its context and meaning to condemn these people. We know that the writers of scripture were not talking about the people you beat over the head with Bible quotes. The Bible writers would be horrified at the way you have twisted their words and willfully ignored what they were originally meant to convey. Some other commenters have attempted to address your apparent ignorance with what the original Bible writers where talking about in the verses you quote. But like those that stoned Stephan, you ignore the truth and instead embrace lies. You have no excuse for being ignorant in this matter, when the truth of the Bible writers’ message has been made clear. Indeed, you have condemned yourself as a result. Like those of old, you have given yourself to bigotry and the cause of the Enemy of Souls.


@RogerLutz Jr " - on implementing your social standards to others - "

Repeatedly : Please to Gen 19 (and Judges 19 !) look at the lustful ( 1 ) sadistic violence and raping and torture and killing - in penitentiaries, also womens penitentiaries, behind battlefields (Ukraine now ! ) , in alleys - - Did you ever witness a real group of young gays (1954 at the local public municipial swimming facility ) - and the cute teenie girl, the newcome prostitute, daughter of refugees from Hungary, approachig them - and them being bewildered, helpless, caught in heavydisgust - - But Lot did offer - female virgins ???

Romans 1 : Ohh, they volontarily did - - yes, the oversaturated , incredibly waelthy Romans in the Caracalla - Thermae , as described by Martial and Juvenal - - (well, I have read them like Ovidius and Horatius - )

1 Cor 6 : 9 - : The special prostitution by effeminated male teens and their wealthy elderly gentlemen in cities around the Aegaean Sea is described by Philo alexandrinus in Spec Leg III - -
See, I jsut have done some questioning and looking and watching and studying through a long time - - - before demanding “The Bible alone !”

So , three special issues out of OT and NT not and not and not at all give us the tools to ostracise dear Brother XX, who more or less sucessfully , full of fear and anxiety had hidden his “orientation” for a lifetime - -

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@David 1 - this horrible "The Bible alone ! " - for ignorant cherrypickers !


I’m pretty sure that the Bible, religion, Christianity, etc., really don’t have much, if any appeal for the cherry pickers if it means taking away their right to judge others and tell them how to live their lives.

The opposite approach, which says “remove the stick from your own eye before trying to remove a speck of dust from your neighbor’s”-that is, work on your own problems before assuming you’re in a position to “love” and “help” others-just doesn’t have the ego gratification of feeling superior to your fellow humans and giving them your free (I.e., worthless) advice!

A few years ago, everyone had WWJD bumper stickers on their cars. But now they’ve gone out of style, I think for two reasons.

First, it’s impossible to tell, based on the stories we have about him, exactly what Jesus would do if he were propelled two thousand years forward into our generation and how he would deal with modern life, as we know it.

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, no one alive today is Jesus-or at least very few have the audacity to make this claim for fear of hospitalization-so trying to emulate him, or extrapolate what he would do in anyone else’s situation, is like trying to figure how one should live based on WWDD, or “What would Dumbledore Do?”



It’s so difficult to take the Hebrew Scriptures which were translated multiple times into semi-comprehensible English, and then also translate our 21st century culture on to their B.C. culture and say definitively what it all means! We can see what the position of women was in the ancient world (near worthless), so any man “acting the part” of a woman in a sexual relationship would have been so totally degraded. So men, don’t act like a disgusting woman! They are just incubators for the fully formed humans carried in the male reproductive organs! And, if you are not using your SEED for implanting new humans in women, this is also against God’s purpose! Notice also that Jesus was betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, the price of a woman - the degradation never ends.
So please, try to read the interesting anthology we (fairly recently) call the Holy Bible as ancient wisdom literature, not the ABC Manual of Literal Facts to Make Sure I Am Right and Everybody Else is Wrong.


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