Continuity and Change: The Dangerous Border the Church Must Cross

(Thomas J Zwemer) #21

Excellent commentary on a critical issue, With the personalities involved at the head, the outcome is likely unchristian and gross.

(George Tichy) #22

Considering the absurdity of his proposal, it seem to me that the "May God use him" is lacking as well… :thinking:

(Thomas J Zwemer) #23

The sales pitch of all churches, especially the Adventist Church is “Come unto Me” While the voice of Christ calls “Come unto Me” We gather together to ask the Lords blessing, not man or woman. If there be a man or woman gifted and trained in proclaiming the Gospel, we set them apart to fill their calling. They act in our day as John the Baptist did in his. If we trust a woman to train an innocent vulnerable child, why forbid the pulpit to tell the same to adults. ?

(Steve Mga) #24

George –
“Beastly – Empire Power” is like a chameleon.
It comes in various disguises.
Even wears Religious Trappings when necessary.
And is not limited to just one “Family” group.
Inguisition behavior–actions by any group is Empire
It is difficult to imagine [but we have seen it in print] that
these forms of behavior would become Policy in the SDA
AND WHY are ALL 28 Stated beliefs so important? Several
could be integrated together.
AND WHY is Gender In-equality so important to maintain in
the World Wide Denomination?
And WHEN did Gender In-equality become a Bible Doctrine?
All this is so CHILLING to thoughts of bringing people into this
religious environment, even considering helping persons find
a new relationship with Sabbath worship.
PS-- James and Ellen White in the early 1870’s only had one
hand-ful of doctrines ‘generally believed’ by members at that time.

  • In the 1880’s Ellen White was calling for Gender Equality. The
    MEN poopooed her back then, the MEN are STILL poopooing her
    in 2018.


For non-moral, non-salvation issues this is hubris at its best.

We do not need false prophets or people who create false crisis.

So simple question then, do you support Wilson in-spite of clear guidance we have received from the servant of the Lord EGW that rejects his position as being out of alignment with the wishes of the almighty?

(Andy) #26

EGW was given “Ordained Minister” credentials many times even without a formal ordination ceremony in recognition of God’s calling, and the church didn’t shake, why is this such an issue?
See her credentials here:

A true pastor will never argue or fight about who should be the head or tail, or clamor for any position or title or rank, but humble even more to serve as a servant. Pastoring should be about mission rather than any position. Until this is fully recognized, the shaking and gnashing of teeth will continue.

(Steve Mga) #27

Wilydav by his original comment has agreed that he STRONGLY
supports the actions and power exhibited by TW at this time. And
sees TW as a role model for this time in the church.

(jeremy) #28

if AC2018 turns out to be our rehoboam moment, it’s worth noting that other churches have also had, or are having, their rehoboam moments, not over WO, necessarily, but mostly over LGBT:

of course it’s also worth noting that a lot of opposition to WO is based on the fear that it will usher in LGBT, and that at least some WO supporters do in fact advocate LGBT…

something has been, and is, working in the christian world that’s too wide-spread to be coincidence…it’s as if an unspoken divide and conquer strategy is operating…perhaps staying together and avoiding a split, even if we don’t get our way, is the statement we should be making at this time…

General Conference Answers Questions Regarding Its Leadership
(Elmer Cupino) #29

There is more to it than just asking questions and changes. The deeper issues lie with the child’s success in resolving childhood developmental issues and milestones one of which is separation and individuation from his father. A child who has failed to successfully negotiate this milestone will continue to struggle with his father’s perceived presence throughout his life projecting his battle to his surroundings. We see this with Rehoboam’s subconscious struggle with his father, we see this too in family guidance clinic. Perhaps what we see in TW are the same dynamics that fueled Rehoboam’s punitive management approach where a number of his subjects were collateral damage to a psychological warfare.

Prayers should be more effective only after undergoing psychoanalysis to confront the ghost of the past.

(Peter) #30

The GC could find itself in a strange place if most or all of the NAD breaks away - which I believe could easily happen. Is it providential that the NAD now has its own building / property separate from the GC?

Do you think Ted has even been able to think through the consequences of the path he has chosen? Or is his narcissistic personality disorder so severe that this isn’t possible?

(Allen Shepherd) #31

The solution to the present “crisis” calls for humility, magnanimity, and Christian statesmanship. When equally dedicated Adventists, operating in good faith, cannot reach consensus on a non-moral issue — an issue, moreover, not spelled out in Scripture — then magnanimity, Christian statesmanship, and humility require that we accept reality and simply let responsible Divisions proceed at their own pace. It seems the only sensible


You are mistaken on the “non-moral” nature of this issue in many minds. The majority here feel it is quite a moral one indeed.

Therefore, it cannot be handled in the way you suggest. And in fact your suggestion to just ignore the vote and go about our business would suit the “moral” issue folks just fine, but would be ignoring the good faith of those that voted no in 2015.

Magnanimity seems lacking all around, but particularly here. Good luck.

(Johnny Carson) #32

There’s definitely no positive aspect to this proposal or to his actions. The documents themselves have been written predominantly in the negative context. In short, his administration is not a positive one. He does not build faith and cooperation by seeking common ground. Rather he seeks do divide and conquer, a tactic that may win the battle but inevitably has always lost the war.

(Kim Green) #33

Thanks for posting these, Jeremy…very interesting. I don’t know if the SDA church is going to accomplish what these other churches have not or how long it can evolve with, or in spite of, society. Right now, it is like watching a bad telenovela.

(Kim Green) #34

"but would be ignoring the good faith of those that voted no in 2015."

I would rather “ignor” “the good faith of those that voted no in 2015”…than transgress the morality of others. Seems rather simple to me.

(C.B.S.) #35

That’s the point, George! My local church is suffering a lot from that particular sword hanging over us.
New members? Impossible right now.


Wilydav - my concern is that we use that quote when it suits us. I was at the Autumn LEAD Council in 2016. A presentation was made on the first day that was supposed to be recorded and replayed the following day. We were simply told they had not been able to edit it the next day. I have it on good authority that in fact Ted did not like the presentation so removed it. I would have accepted that rationale as at least truthful - but we were directly lied to as a group. That to me does not ring true as someone who cannot be brought or sold!

(George Tichy) #37

Yes, having its own building is a great asset for the NAD.
It may not be difficult at all for the Unions to break away from the GC. I bet their lawyers have been busy already looking into the legalities involved.
At the end of the day, those people at the GC may end up unemployed d/t “irrelevance!” Who needs them anyway?

(George Tichy) #38

Well Allen, what would you expect from a bunch of “fools” as you said once?.. :roll_eyes:

(George Tichy) #39

It seems that what local churches need is to be converted from this vulture Adventism pursued by the GC and become more Christian oriented again. Local churches should forget any 28 refined statements( that are not even impressive) and, opening the Bible alone keep preaching the Gospel as defined in the good Book. This is what Christian churches do!


Are people blind and not paying attention? Our church has hired and/or ordained gay men and women through the years as leaders, pastors, and educators.