Could the Solution to the Church’s Stalemate Come Out of Africa?

(jeremy) #186

nkosi, i know all about the modjadji of the balobedu in limpopo…i also know that makobo died in 2005, and that her daughter, princess masalanabo, was fathered by a commoner…if it weren’t for the fact that the rain queen legend is iconic, and draws tourists, it is likely that balobedu’s past would fade into history…after-all, their male dynasties aren’t getting much attention…

and having been born and raised in s. africa, i know all about how s. african families are structured…i certainly know that i felt lucky to be a boy, rather than a girl, while growing up, and i certainly know that my mother was considered blessed because of all of her sisters, she was the only one who had all boys for children…i also know that two of my mother’s brothers regularly beat their wives when they disobeyed them, and i know that in one case, another one of my mother’s brothers had to intervene, or my aunt would have been killed…and this is in addition to what is known about how some of my uncles cheated on their wives…

and it’s not a question of belittling africans…in addition to being jewish, dutch, german, french and english, i am extremely proud of my zulu and xhosa heritage…i think you make a good point that much of what is dysfunctional in s. africa is a legacy of apartheid…but the point is that that dysfunctionality exists…sexism exists…i saw it in my father and all my uncles my whole life…you can’t tell me that the delegates from africa who voted no in san antonio weren’t responding to cultural queues…

TW has understood all of this and has tried to use you to assist with his evident vendetta against PUC and CUC…remember, he was brought up in egypt, which features a rape culture, and is very misogynist…

(George Tichy) #187

Maybe @Clint can update us properly about this issue. He i one that was strongly involved in unveiling the corruption that was taking place in that Division.

(George Tichy) #188

The only thing difficult to understand is why TW does not side with his original culture’s habits, but rather with a culture that still supports the (barbaric) issues you mentioned.

t appears obvious that in order to keep the power and authority in his hands, he has no problem with compromising basic human values and rights that every human being should be allowed. Using a religious environment for such is just horrific!!!

(jeremy) #189

TW has definitely been a disappointment, that’s for sure…the only thing i can chalk all of this up to is his life time in administrative appointments…he would have been so much better off pastoring a church in maryland for a few yrs…instead he’s spent so much time in administrative positions in africa…his parents were missionaries there, and likely lived somewhat above the people they were supposedly ministering to…i think he’s just lost touch with ordinary adventists, especially NADventists…we can see now that he’s been running the GC like an imperial machine…

(Worried) #190

The Ratsara issues is far from done right now there is another investigation that is on going. Ratsara should have kept quite and gone into retirement. The questions coming up now are even more concerning that the last lot. The “clearance” Ratsara refers too was k ly to save UNISA but that is gonna be short lived.

(Tim Teichman) #191

You actually used three capital letters. I’m gonna mark this day on my calendar.

And let’s not forget the others he has left behind:

DrinkingAdventists (a group I’ve only recently become aware of - and they’re everywhere!)

Let’s see… whose left?


Please do not take offense at this list. It is sort of in jest, and even where it rings true it is of course a generalization. But Ted really has called for those that don’t fully buy into the 28 to leave the church, has said they’re not real Adventists. In public. From the podium. (Even as the 28, which keep changing, did not even exist when I was baptized - and I don’t have white hair yet.)

In all seriousness I think we as a church are at risk of losing the future generation and many others from the first list above. Is that what we want? Do we want to be so exclusive, so concerned with personal habits and rules, that we alienate so many and the church appeals to so few? Is being exclusive worth it? Or is inclusiveness more correct? I seem to recall a certain Jewish itinerant teacher who taught that inclusiveness was far better. How did we lose that concept?

An Open Letter to Fellow Seventh-day Adventists

Why are you so condescending?

I’m proud to be from the NAD, a division that sends thousands of missionaries around the world to share the Gospel story.

I will never apologize for the part of my culture that preached against polygamy and liquor as you complained, on the continent of Africa and others.

I am proud of our church’s healthful living beliefs.

The reason we began sending missionaries, beginning with J.N. Andrews, was not because the world revolved around us.

If you make sorry accusations of bitterness, that is your issue. It is, as Dan Jackson says, hooey.

(Eugene Borg) #193

Tim, your remarkable list of the great (and welcomed) diversity in our Adventist congregations gave me a refreshing laugh and I thank you! :laughing:

(Nkosi) #194

Of coz you would take it out of context, like the spectrum Web editor. truth is that was a direct response to a personal attack on me. One @timtiechman wrote"she is not your sister " on a comment that was not directed at him at all. all I read in his statement was bitterness, unless you are the same person using 3 different aliases, condensanting? Not even, proud of missionaries? You should be, they did what they could, it may not have been the best. But they tried

(Nkosi) #195

Well unfortunately sounds like you are using your experience to do exactly what you are accusing TW of.your family issues (sorry about that ) are not a reflection of South Africa. what you went through is the misnomer not the norm. would it be fair or even ok if I labelled America monsters? Why because cnn and other news agencies report on parents who locked up their kids for months, how about those that rape their kids, how about child marriage in polygamy like the ones on "escaping Mormon " the programme on tv, should I label America racists for all the black people being mudered by police or by supremists shooting people in churches, is that how we view each other now. Using your logic, should I say usa has a racist, monstrous, polygamic, rape culture? Because if I were to start writing on the evils reported that happen in America I wouldn’t be able to stop. Are you suggesting that maybe Dan Jackson is racist since he comes from a racist culture? You may hate your culture (African culture ) but please don’t label all of us with your personal experiences tragic as they are. You alluded to the fact that certain cultural practices would be extinct were it not for tourism? Funny how those same practices survived centuries without tourism. At the end of the day, truth is we Africans voted on our convictions and beliefs and understanding of what the bible says. Sad that you and others in the geopolitical west think we voted because of anything else other than that

(Nkosi) #196

The problem again which you miss so badly is not "preaching against liquor and polygamy " it is claiming that it’s a biblical doctrine. that’s what the problem is, yes you can preach against it all you want just don’t claim that the bible teaches against the practices. same thing with wo, you can do it all you want just don’t go using Africa as an excuse for your rebellion, be honest enough and brave enough to say we will do it whatever you say, all these arguments that you are putting up in a supposed belief in freedom of conscience or equal rights etc is all about you (certain quarters within the geopolitical west ) by the way this geopolitical west includes some folk in Africa , trying to get their way. we are saying the issue was settled at gc session, let’s move on.

(Cfowler) #197

Great list! I bet there are some:

BaconLovingAdentists :bacon::slightly_smiling_face: :bacon:

(jeremy) #198

you can’t say that, nkosi…there are too many studies that have been done on africa’s violence towards its women…s. africa’s own medical research council (MRC) says that 40% of s. africa’s men assault their female partner’s daily…that’s a shocking statistic, and it speaks of a mindset that devalues women…

you can say all you want that it was conviction, belief and understanding of what the bible says that guided your no vote at san antonio…but to others, it looks like your culture won out…keep in mind that in order to deliver that no vote, you had to ignore the TOSC reports, a majority of our scholars at BRI, and a majority of our theologians at andrews seminary…

(Nkosi) #199

In light of slavery, can I say American culture is racist? Please just an honest frank answer. yes? And why no? And why

(jeremy) #200

well, slavery is in the past, but i would say american culture is definitely racist in some areas…but at least there are laws on the books that have protected non-whites for a long time here…don’t forget there’s been a coloured american president, and there was almost a female american president…

(Nkosi) #201

Thank you then, American culture is racist. would we then say when they vote at gc they’re are influenced by racism, remember the issue of laws, there are laws against gbv in s.a one of the strictest punishments and rightly so.
Where does that leave us as a church re gc 2005, African vote was influenced and is influenced by a gbv culture and western (nad)vote is influenced by a racist culture? Does that mean we have a racist constituency in an ideological battle with a gbv constituency? If so, God help us. We need serious prayer

(Kim Green) #202

Nkosi…the issue about the GC vote is that it cannot be resolved. It is a matter of conscience to many of us and the church is at the point where many other denominations have schismed at. Unless Ted Wilson and crew back down from “dire consequences” -then the church will split. It is unfortunate that it has come to this… but here we all are.

(jeremy) #203

i didn’t say that…i said some areas are racist…there are definitely pockets of white supremacists and nationalists and neo-nazis…but american culture, as a whole, is race and gender blind…it hasn’t been described internally as a GBV culture…

but let’s back up a bit…would you say that s. africa is racist…would you say it isn’t racist…and before you try to tell me that s. africa isn’t racist, now that apartheid is officially dead, remember you’re talking to someone who was born and raised there…and i was in joburg, cape town, pretoria, port elizabeth, durban and many other places in s. africa not too long ago…so go ahead…say to me that s. africa isn’t racist…

the reality is that the whole world is both racist and sexist, but it is a fact that america has led the way in both racial and gender parity…does that mean no racism and sexism exist anywhere in america…no, it doesn’t…but it does mean that you should sit up and take notice when america concludes that the time has come for women to be ordained in our church, and if they have talent, rise through the ranks to conference, union and the GC presidencies…

(jeremy) #204

if the church does split, TW will go down in history as having orchestrated it…how anyone can sleep at night with that kind of legacy is mind-boggling…

(George Tichy) #205

[quote=“vandieman, post:204, topic:17229”]
if the church does split, TW will go down in history as having orchestrated it…

Well, maybe then people will listen more seriously to the current prophet… :roll_eyes: