Could the Solution to the Church’s Stalemate Come Out of Africa?


(Denny) #206

…Maybe then let us split… If NAD and many others who are like minded do not desire to walk with the brethren in unity inspite of ideological differences, then there is no purpose to a facade of unity. The world church bases its beliefs on the Word and there we stand.


(Nkosi) #207

I fail to understand you completely sir, you turn around and say America is not racist but has pockets of racism yet you claim south Africa doesn’t have pockets of wife beaters but has a culture of wife beating. When America does it it’s pockets when Africa does it it’s all of them. you believe America is at a higher state of civilisation than Africa, you don’t say it out but you insinuate it. This creates a better than you situation. if that’s what Christianity is i want nothing to do with it. you claim America has made advances and when they say something we should stand up and listen. listen we do sir, agree however is another issue. In church, the bible is the final arbiter of doctrine. we will only agree if we are convicted and clearly proven so biblically. On social issues, the west is struggling with its foreign policy in Africa because of this bullying big brother better civilised mentality. They’re creating unnecessary walls. and they expect cooperation from Africa.


(Nkosi) #208

I hear you, however nad should have never agreed to it being voted on. Well that would have been difficult considering as early as 1980 wo was already an issue, by 1990 it was voted no, by majority nad leadership. problem 1-nad voted against wo in 1990, the fact that it came to the gc session is clear indication that nad then knew that gc session held universal authority in the church, it clearly shows that both pro and anti wo ordination camps wanted the result to be universal, it was only because they continually lost at gc session that the pro wo camp started the regional consience movement. had the pro wo camp won in 1990, the practise would be universal and not a matter of conscience.
2-Dan Jackson and company then come with their regionalism, problem is the first vote was universal, it is cowardice and dishonest to make this regional when it started off universal and when other similar issues are universal. by universal I mean determined at gc session level. So @cincerity no! This is not a matter of conscience, it’s a matter of pOwer and a case of "we are all equal but some are more equal than others " case, when we make a collective decision, if that decision isn’t in line with the wishes of the more equal, they will throw all tantrums and accusations and jests and insults until they have their way. only then will we be equal. The hate spewed on TW on this forum you would swear he is Hitler, his only crime is he refuses to tow the line of the pro wo camp. and for that he has become the devil incarnate, he is the one who’s split the church! I pray that the Spirit and grace and power of God sustain elder TW.


#209

In light of slavery?!

This was a horrific practice, in most countries, has been abolished and discarded. This continued discussion as if people involved in our church continue the practice or somehow endorse it is both malicious and adversarial.


(Kim Green) #210

I don’t think that NAD could refuse to vote upon it, Nkosi. It was only politically brought before the GC session because there was never going to be a clear biblical consensus among the SDA scholars against WO. I can assure you that the best thing was to let the individual regions choose for themselves…but this was unfortunately pushed forward by TW and interested parties.

It is most certainly a matter of conscience for us and it is unfortunate that it has been pushed this far to the point of church schism. Ted Wilson is most likely a part of the Last Generation Theology movement in this church and he may well believe that he is “ushering in the Shaking”. It is good that you pray for him because the fall-out from the “Dire Consequences” that he has promised could be very damaging for the church to the point of permanently weakening it.


(Kim Green) #211

He exists at the rarefied echelons of Adventism and may suffer from the delusional Messianic state of “ushering in the Shaking”. However…there’s still the “real” world to deal with.


(George Tichy) #212
  1. I don see anyone trying to split, or even desiring to split.
  2. What is happening is that the Church in certain areas of the globe wants to eliminate discrimination of women, while other areas don’t.
  3. The problem is not cause by the Divisions, or Unions, or Conferences but rather by a morally weak GC that keeps supporting the discrimination.
  4. The problem is not UNITY but rather TW actually treating UNIFORMITY as UNITY. He is incapable of allowing the two words mean what they mean, trying to make them equal, synonymous. All fueled by his thirst for inquisitive power centralized in his hands.
  5. There is no façade involved. Certain branches of the Church are very clear that they want to eliminate discrimination of women, others are not.
  6. The Word says nothing about:
    a. centralization of power in the GC’s hands.
    b. the GC working as an inquisitorial agency, thus abusing power.
    c. discrimination of women.
  7. Any split will happen only as a result of the GC’s Machiavellian plan to control the Church based on inquisitorial procedures, a la Soviestka.
  8. A split, if forced by the GC, will kill nobody. I personally would stick with the non-discriminating side. A personal choice.

(George Tichy) #213

I don’t understand how come people who are against slavery support discrimination of women!
It’s almost like a democrat in the US, who supports a strong middle class, voting for a republican candidate. Oxymoron.
Also, a “Christian who supports discrimination of women” is another oxymoron.


(George Tichy) #214

Now, this is an accurate diagnosis!!! That’s exactly it. You described the whole situation in a few words. WOW!!!


(Kim Green) #215

I have been learning from the “Masters” here. :grin:


#216

That is indeed an good analogy and, if I might, add another.

“I believe in the simple word of God as it is written” while true many will tell you that know the linguistic, culture, or situation it was written in is relevant. This is where they lose out on the richness, depth and great treasures of the Bible. Picking up the diamonds visible on the ground but never digging deeper to find the true richness buried below unknown only because they don’t wish to be bothered with the effort to learn more.

Those of us who know more than one language know very well that an idiom translated into another language can very easily lose the meaning all together. This is also true of words, phrases or idioms that change over course of time within a single language. The term ‘boner’/‘gay’ is a good example of this, in English, and that in our lifetime has seen it’s meaning change so much that it is no longer at all what it was in so short a time ago. So you can’t ignore the shift over time of the context of culture, idioms or expression.

So saying ‘I only take the simple meaning’ can lead to a significant misconception or misunderstanding. The New Testament was written with the 1st century readers cultural constructs, idioms and expressions in mind by the inspired writer. So at that time the writer tried to make it easy for people to understand in that context. Now 2000 years later we have someone reading it in say Zimbabwe, Tokyo and Texas. Is it reasonable to think that these same writings have been either translated/localized to address time, culture and language so that it retains exactly the same meaning for these readers now?

Even very simple things such as the role of men and women in various situations can be misinterpreted. Things that we taken for granted or were common knowledge in the past are not included in the writing. The reader now fills in the blanks to fit their particular interpretive bias (cause we all have 'em) if they don’t have an understand of the context in which they were written. In this respect, as a church, we have done ourselves a huge disservice by not teaching people about the context in which things were written or how to read ancient texts correctly.

We have the knowledge of such things available but don’t teach it. We have the Sabbath School quarterlies that are thought to be last word on guiding Bible study and understanding. This is our crime and it is also our punishment and the reason we are where we are.


(Elmer Cupino) #217

Our GC conductor must have learned a lesson or two from Toscanini. Check this out…


(jeremy) #218

can you show me three or more studies or news reports that say america is racist…i can show you many more than three studies that say that s. africa, and africa in general, has a culture of wife beating…

america isn’t monolithic…it’s a conglomerate…while there is still a dominant, although shrinking, white culture, there are many other, equally american, cultures…black and asian american culture have been around for a long time…latino culture is probably the surging american culture now…

officially, american culture is a consensus of what is the best from the cultures around the world…for many yrs, people from all over the world have regularly moved to america to participate in a better economic life…in turn, they have contributed parts of their cultures to the over-all national culture of america…

america’s collective culture is now strongly egalitarian…MH cannot fly here, like it can in africa, and like it no doubt would have in ancient israel…there’s little doubt that africa voted according to its cultural values, which informed its interpretation of certain biblical passages…but NAD, including many blacks in NAD, also voted according to its cultural values…notice that a majority of biblical experts in our church came down on the side of NAD’s cultural values, not africa’s…notice, also, that had the vote in san antonio been yes, instead of no, africa could have continued to practice MH to its heart’s content, and our church wouldn’t be in the bind it’s in now…this in itself shows that the no vote in san antonio was the wrong vote…

well, i do believe america is at a higher state of civilization that africa…i believe america represents the highest state of civilization the world has ever seen…i don’t think anyone seriously questions that…this is why so many people from all over the world move to america whenever they can…

africa, on the other hand, represents an ancient culture, much like china’s, india’s, iran’s, saudi arabia’s, and many others…these cultures are not known for honouring the individual, regardless of race or gender or religious belief…many of them of serious human rights abuses…of course they’re moving in an egalitarian direction, but this movement is slow…it will take many generations for them to get to where america is now…

but the fact that america represents a higher state of civilization, doesn’t mean americans are more important that africans…people are people, and equally important, regardless of the culture they represent…keep in mind that there are many africans that are contributing to the advanced culture they’re living in now in america…there’s already been a half-african and black first lady in the white house…america has absorbed, and is continuing to absorb, parts of african culture…

the west is struggling with donald trump, who represents a fading type of thinking from america’s past…in terms of social issues unaffected by trump, there’s fault on both sides…yes, america does come across as thinking it’s better than anyone else, especially under president trump, as i’ve indicated (much less so under president obama), but there’s unnecessary defensiveness from africa that contributes to that perception…africa is quick to play the racism card at every opportunity, as if america is a land of 325 million white people who’s goal it is to lord it over all black people in the world…

but do you know how many black people live in america now…there are over 37 million blacks, representing over 12% of the population…while this is less than the 46 million blacks living in s. africa, or the 48.5 million blacks living in kenya, it is more than the 29 million blacks living in ghana, or the 16.8 million blacks living in zimbabwe, and much more than the 2.3 million blacks living in botswana…and did you know, for instance, that for several yrs now, more babies of colour have been born in america than white babies…america is projected to be a majority brown and black country by the year 2045…will you then say that america is racist when it calls africa out on its treatment of its women…


(Red Livingstone) #219

We talk about slavery as if it were in the past.

It is not.

Human dignity is central to human identity.
It is the foundation of human rights.

The Roman soldiers spit on Jesus.
They create a crown of thorns and mock His true identity as King.
In the continuation of humiliating Jesus, the soldiers remove his clothing.

TODAY Men, women, and children are objectified. Their bodies sold and trafficked. Stripped of their rights, their belongings, and even their lives.

Access is as close as my mobile phone or my laptop, and proof of my complicity fills my shopping cart.

How many slaves work for you?

Know your slavery footprint. Educate yourself.
Take the survey at http://slaveryfootprint.org/

Globally, there were 5.4 victims of modern slavery for every 1,000 people in the world. Looking regionally, the prevalence of modern slavery was highest in Africa with 7.6 victims for every 1,000 people in the region (https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/2018/findings/regional-analysis/regional-findings/#figure:1). This was followed by Asia and the Pacific (6.1 victims) and Europe and Central Asia (3.9 victims). The prevalence in the Arab States and Americas was lower, at 3.3 and 1.9 victims per 1,000 people respectively.

May God bless you
with discomfort at easy answers,
half truths, and superficial relationships,
… so that you may live deep within your heart.

May God bless you with anger at injustice,
oppression, and exploitation of people,
… so that you may work for justice, freedom, and peace.

May God bless you with tears to shed for those
who suffer from pain, rejection, starvation, and war,
… so that you may reach out your hand to comfort them and to turn their pain into joy.

May God bless you
with enough foolishness to believe that
you can make a difference in this world,
… so that you can do what others claim cannot be done.

And the blessing of God
who creates, red eems, and sanctifies be upon you and all you love,
and pray for this day and forever more.

Franciscan Prayer


(George Tichy) #220

Our Toscanini is not being much popular at our NAD… :roll_eyes:


(Tim Teichman) #221

.+
ShrimpLovingAdentists


(Nkosi) #222

The bible has no experts, at least not the ones who have spent 3 yrs studying a structured syllabus created by someone else who calls themselves an expert
Even if it were, where is the statistics to prove your majority, seems you’re just throwing words to make a point
Even if you were to somehow come up with statistics, who verified them against bias [quote=“vandieman, post:218, topic:17229”]
merica isn’t monolithic…it’s a conglomerate…while there is still a dominant, although shrinking, white culture, there are many other, equally american, cultures…black and asian american culture have been around for a long time…latino culture is probably the surging american culture now…

officially, american culture is a consensus of what is the best from the cultures around the world…for many yrs, people from all over the world have regularly moved to america to participate in a better economic life…in turn, they have contributed parts of their cultures to the over-all national culture of america…
[/quote]

This is not correct, people from all over the world including America have moved to s.a to China to zimbabwe, s.a has true metropolises much as America in the likes of joburg new York etc, so the world at large is a conglomerate America doesn’t hold a monopoly of multiculturalism, everyone knows this. Visit joburg Hong Kong Beijing Nairobi just to name a few so no multiculturalism is everywhere. [quote=“vandieman, post:218, topic:17229”]

situation.

well, i do believe america is at a higher state of civilization that africa…i believe america represents the highest state of civilization the world has ever seen…i don’t think anyone seriously questions that…this is why so many people from all over the world move to america whenever they can…

africa, on the other hand, represents an ancient culture, much like china’s, india’s, iran’s, saudi arabia’s, and many others…these cultures are not known for honouring the individual, regardless of race or gender or religious belief…many of them of serious human rights abuses…of course they’re moving in an egalitarian direction, but this movement is slow…it will take many generatio
[/quote]

Well that’s where the problem is, fortunately everyone knows there’s no such thing as higher state of civilisation, it’s just masked racism or an inferiority complex, or superiority complex. the only thing that America leads the world are military power and its largest economy. Education, sport, quality of life, happiness index etc, if you look into those things you will see America lags behind other countries. higher civilised state? How exactly what exactly do you mean, we don’t believe that, the majority of people in America don’t believe that. So I won’t engage you further on this. Coz there’s no point we are like light and darkness, our world views are totally different


(jeremy) #223

nkosi, scholars in our BRI and andrews seminary have studied much more than three yrs…typically they have at least one doctorate, and sometimes from very prestigious schools…all you’re doing is setting aside the gift of teaching that god has placed in our church…you’re being guided by nothing more than your own opinions, which you’re reading into the bible without realizing it…


(Kim Green) #224

Just adding my 2 cents in…since you were talking about quality of life, etc. This is one that the Business Insider did this year. Economics and education generally go together…plus there is an interesting small graph about Human Development by the UN at the bottom of the list. Enjoy!

@Nkosi