Could the Solution to the Church’s Stalemate Come Out of Africa?

(Allen Shepherd) #21

I had to laugh when I read this George.

  1. I don’t despise you, just disagree. Why would you interpret that as despising?
  2. Has there been any support for TW here by any of you? Is not there only criticism? So, my assertion is correct.
  3. Facts under the rug? You mean like the speculation of this article? I am troubled by the clear impending division of the church, but I cannot control what others do, so make my contribution and go to sleep on a soft pillow each night,
  4. My “fools”. You are all pretty bright, as far as I can tell, including you. No, I do not doubut your intelligence. But you are as wedding to your thinking as Trump supporters are to theirs. Little ability to see the other side.

Despise you? Ha. I love you! Why am I always drawn back? Can’t be a despising…


The problem is that they won’t clean their own house first because it would mean giving up luxuries and comfortable lives built on using the system to suck every last dollar that they can for their own personal gain.

(Elmer Cupino) #23

Allen, how does this differ from pastors and ministers who stand in the pulpit pretending they have insight into God’s thoughts and will? As a matter of fact how does this differ from pastors and ministers who think they have insight into who their congregations are other than just being mere fools? What is it among us than that makes us more privilege and entitled than others? Perhaps a psychologist the likes of our dear friend George @GeorgeTichy could shed light better than a theologian whose sense of empathy has been diminished by such entitlement.

(Kim Green) #24

"Because he came from Africa and has a friend who speaks to him of he goings on does not meean he has such insight. I think it would have to be a close associate of TW and the African leaders to have that sort of insight."

I don’t know why you would think this- but it is your opinion.

"Such would not write in this forum, nor disclose such things to this group. Why put yourself ins a position to be cut off from the group, and to open up their supposed thinking to the onslaught of criticism that you would certainly get here?"

You are assuming that the Africans all think alike, think and feel that everything that Ted W. does is wonderful, believe that the SDA church is on the right trajectory. This is a lot of assumptions, Allen…which may lead to “doubt”.

(Kim Green) #25

"Despise you? Ha. I love you!"

So said the abusing spouse to the other. :grinning:

"Why am I always drawn back?"

It could be a million reasons…some known…and unknown.

"Can’t be a despising…"

I know that your background isn’t psychology…stick to religion and medicine, Allen! :wink:

@GeorgeTichy @elmer_cupino

(Steve Mga) #26

Not ALL Denominations in Africa THINK like Seventh day Adventist Leadership
there does.
This last Sunday we had a guest Bishop from the Atlanta Diocese [conference]
of Episcopalians. He and his wife grew up in Ghana. Became a Priest over there
prior to coming to the States.
After service I asked him about women in the church and if any priests were
women in Africa. He said the Anglicans in Ghana began ordaining women Priests
7 years ago. South Africa has been doing so much longer. So has Uganda and
several others that he mentioned.
So it must be JUST Seventh day Adventist MEN who have a problem.

(Kim Green) #27

Interesting, isn’t it, Steve? I have read the same things about many of the other churches in Africa ordaining women…so it has to be less of a “cultural” issue and more of a “religious” one.

(Kim Green) #28

I have heard similar sentiments expressed before a long time ago. I had relatives that worked for the church in Africa decades ago…and this was an issue then. The “Higher Ups” made sure that they took care of themselves more often than not.

(Website Editor) #29

Hi @ajshep, perhaps you’re not familiar with our columnist, Matthew Quartey, who has been writing for us for over a year on a regular basis. May we suggest you read a few of his other pieces, as they might answer some of your questions. You can find all of Matthew’s excellent articles here:

As with all of our regular writers, Matthew offers astute insights based on his unique knowledge, background, network, and perspective, and we greatly appreciate that he shares these insights with our readers.



Yep. It doesn’t say that.

It says…

“For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” MATT 24:24
“But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” MATT 7:14
"For many are called, but few are chosen.” Matt 22:14
“where they strengthened the believers. They encouraged them to continue in the faith, reminding them that we must suffer many hardships to enter the Kingdom of God.” ACTS 14:22

In the 1st century, 5 of the 7 churches in Rev 2 & 3 were already messed up and needed to overcome. What if they didn’t? Was grace going to bail them out?

Most Christians don’t even know what salvation by grace means because they are taught by inept preachers & teachers.

Actions speak louder than words and to God …THOUGHTS are even LOUDER.

Grace will have no effect on habitual thoughts & character at the judgment.

And the 8 likes on your post indicate how fanatic & inept the teaching is.

(Kim Green) #31

After all of the “in-eptness”…just curious if you can give one example of an “un-inept” preacher or teacher (yourself would not count)? Or do you just like being critical with no substance behind it??

(Elmer Cupino) #32

How loud were your thoughts as you entered your adolescent years and were you able to control them? Were you able to control those thoughts and night dreams when you were asleep as well and how effective were you?

(Joselito Coo) #33

@webEd In the interest of transparency and accountability, may I suggest that columnists such as Matthew Quartey be urged to change their poliicy of not engaging with responders to their column. I’m still waiting for his answer to @AfricanAdventist
BTW, l’d ived in four African countries .for brief periods of up to 6 months as a GC-AVS and as a regular mission appointee; Ghana in particular at a time when Elder Matthew Bediako, a Ghanaian national, served as GC General Secretary alongside GC President Jan Paulsen.
@ajshep @cincerity


yes there are numerous cases where money has been stolen through outright corruption and fraud, yet some of those responsible for it have not been handed over to authorities. So does that mean that church workers can break the law and then walk away freely because we are all “brothers and sisters” and should forgive and forget? At the end of time we have to face the consequences of our actions. Judgement… If you break the law you have to face the consequences of your actions…

(Matthew Quartey) #35

It seems to me that the comment by AA was just that, a personal opinion or observation that could be made of any Adventist administrative community anywhere in the world church, the West included. I don’t feel such broad swipes always demand responses. The article provides background to why African church leaders seem to always match in concert to Elder Wilson’s steps and suggests that it might be for local Adventist community self preservation. I then suggest some ways to move forward. AA’s contention that the African church is wasteful, as though that is uniquely African trait, was not a comment I wanted to engage.

(Website Editor) #36

@sokingcoo, just to clarify, there is no policy against our writers engaging with commenters. Some of our authors choose to respond to comments, others do not. It is entirely up to them. At the same time, an author is under no obligation to respond to comments, nor should they be.

There are a variety of reasons why an author may not respond. Some may choose not to read the comments section at all, and so are unaware of comments. The vast majority of our authors have full time jobs and various other responsibilities that understandably take priority in their lives. Reading/engaging the comments section may not be how they choose to spend what little free time they have. Sometimes an author may not respond because a question or comment posted has already been addressed in other articles (whether written by them or someone else) on Spectrum.

And, we agree with Matthew, who has just responded himself, that not every comment requires an answer. Some are not directly on-topic, some are just matters of opinion, and others may ask the writer to speculate on something they do not have direct knowledge of.

Whatever the reason an author chooses to respond or not, “transparency and accountability” have nothing to do with it. The comment section - of any online media outlet - exists so that readers can discuss among themselves an author’s article and its implications. And, if a writer chooses to dive in and engage too, that’s fine, but they certainly shouldn’t feel pressured to do so.


(Matthew Quartey) #37

The church has auditors in every administrative branch from the local conference to the GC. This is how we learned tha 81% of global church entities have questions to answer for their financial accountability. This is hardly hardly an African specific problem. I worry when we use superlatives like “numerous” to accuse a group of “stealing” and “fraud” but are unwilling to identity ourselves other that by a generic AfricanAdventist.

(George Tichy) #38

I didn’t say you despise us, I said you despise Spectrum. Big difference.
No further comments on the rest of your post. It speaks for itself.


Yes, eat less pizza.


What do you think these verses mean???

“Let the wicked forsake their ways and the unrighteous their thoughts.…” IS 55:7
“We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.” 2 Cor 10:5
“Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think about such things.” Phil 4:8
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 1 Cor 13:5
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. …” Rom 12:2

Here is where GRACE has a character reformation/thought replacement-cognitive therapy benefit.

Most preachers are clueless on this approach.