Could the Solution to the Church’s Stalemate Come Out of Africa?

(George Tichy) #101

Never had to bill Medicare for that. I never pray with patients… :wink:
(I’m serious).

(Steve Mga) #102

Ray -
I will have to agree with Linc.
John 3:16. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.
17: God sent His Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save
the world through Him.
When Jesus died on the Cross He asked God the Father to forgive
human beings for killing God, and for doing so in such an awful way.

(Ray Smith) #103

I think you’re right Steve and Lincoln. These are very powerful verses that you quote and there are more like them. The good news of the gospel of grace is too good for human pride and ego to accept, or so it seems. I remember reading as a kid how the angels go through the books looking for sins that don’t have “forgiven” stamped over them, if you get my drift.

Calvary was the judgement of this world. Christ became sin for us. In the light of all such verses, the good news is that all sin was forgiven at the cross. Why then do we continually plead for forgiveness that is already ours by grace. Confession and sorrow? Yes. Forgiveness - already ours, past, present and future when we believe in God’s only Son.

The question is not have you remembered every sin you have ever committed and asked for forgiveness. The question is do we believe in Jesus? What think you of Christ? Whose Son is He? Our positive response to that question opens the floodgates of grace and the love of God floods our hearts. To reject Jesus is to squander His gift of forgiveness and cleansing that cost Him so much on the cross.

Law can only condemn while it appeals to human pride in achieving that which falls way below the righteousness of faith required by God - ie. God’s righteousness. Grace, Jesus Christ, solves our human dilemma.

(Lincoln Dunstan) #104

Hi Ray, a good friend preached one of the best Gospel orientated sermons I have ever heard, and that was the stand-out statement for me,(We are all saved, except some of us choose to be lost!) for which I have modeled my “gospel” on, so it’s not original I’m afraid. I’m happy to hear one better!!

(Nkosi) #105

Unfortunately your article sir is very economical with the truth. 1-the Rastara issue, you deliberately ignore that he was cleared of any wrong doing by the non sda institution concerned. 2-zim and most if not all sid unions are financially self sufficient, they don’t need and certainly don’t depend on GC stipends, the church in sid has grown self funded. the Wilson crusades were once off events whose bearing on financial affairs of sid are insignificant
3-adventist learning institutions in sid are largely self sufficient and are sometimes subsidised by the government not GC, it might be the case that in Ghana you’re supported by NAD, through GC in budgetary support but not so with sid, that’s the real reason behind the growth of sid
So no don’t bother with the so called interventions in health education etc rather engage scripturally as that is what binds us together. it will also be advisable to ask nad instead of sending money to Africa to start looking at the African American community neighbourhoods, the native American neighbourhoods and Hispanic neighbourhoods, I think that’s a far better use of their money. after all charity begins at home doesn’t it? Be blessed .


perhaps you meant to comment separately, but this isn’t my article.

(Joselito Coo) #107
GC Treasurer’s Report SA2015

The GC spends 11.4% of global tithe received in support of IDEs (Missionaries, aka Inter-division Service Employees or ISE’s). Granted the 6% of NAD’s total tithe contributed to the GC is still proportionately way more than the 2% of tithe received from the rest of the world field, we’re looking at the trend, however. Fuzzy logic? Try solving for statistical significance, instead.

That said, my point is, responding to Matthew Quartey’s suggestion for the NAD to bypass the GC by donating NAD mission offering and tithe dollars directly to African union leaders in order to win their sympathy and secure their No votes to Compliance is not the Adventist way. Is it?

(Ray Smith) #108

There’s a book by Neal Punt, “So Also In Christ,” that takes up this issue. Punt’s suggested choice is between A and B.
A. All persons will be finally lost except those who the Bible declares will be saved.
B. All persons will be saved except those who the Bible declares will be finally lost.
Punt defends option B. It’s a challenging book, especially for those of us who grew up with option A.

(Ray Smith) #109

This whole sorry saga of compliance committees, manipulating votes, the opposition to women’s ordination and the negative spin-off from all sides of the argument are not the Adventist way. At least it’s not the Adventism I grew up in.

(Red Livingstone) #110

I am not sure what statistical significance you are looking for. These charts are much specific than the other charts that you provided. What these bar charts seem to show is that the NAD offerings have basically remained at a steady rate while the sum total of the other Divisions have increased. Over a ten year period, I would not categorize that NAD’s contribution has “trended” to diminish. As far as the tithe bar chart, the trend of NAD tithe is continuing to rise. 2017 figures show that the NAD brings in 44% of the tithe. I think it is an excellent trend that the other divisions are increasing both the offerings and tithe. That value has possibly more to do with membership increase, though. Per capita tithe is about $19 for SID Africa; $190 for South America and $800+ for NAD (maybe more like $879, I calculated these numbers two days ago from the 2018 Statistics Report, but the calculations are at my office.).

As far as how much GC monies go for global missions, I still haven’t see a chart that shows the detail. The 11.4% supports IDEs, but that does not include the global mission work. I would like to know the breakdown of what the appropriations go for. I would like to know about the GC administered monies, are these funds the retirement funds or for attached territories? Personally, I think the 20% GC Headquarters percentage is high. Yes, it probably goes for salaries and building expenses, but in terms of non-profit organizations, that administration number is healthier in the 10 to 12% range. To be honest with you, the pie charts are vague (Fuzzy Logic).

I’ve never disagreed with your bottom line. I would not support the suggestion for NAD to start their own direct mission dispersals, especially for the stated reasons! Two wrongs do not make any thing right. My questions to your postings had everything to do with graphs that did not explain clearly.

(Denny) #111

Ummm… What reciprocation have you made for “African culture?” Have you as NAD permitted us to walk in animal skins and semi naked as our ancestors? I dont think so… Nevertheless, we didnt and never need anybody’s permission to do or not to do anything… We simply need the unction of the Bible to direct us…So there is no “scratch my back I will scratch yours” going on here. We speak and vote according to conviction not according to favours nor according to any finances anybody may send here.

(Denny) #112

Its interesting how many here comment as if Africa is one big country or village who just go with the flow of the “ruling chief.” P.S. Africa is not a country but a continent with 54 recognised states (Western Sahara is still in dispute). We have diverse cultures across and even much more languages and dialects and ways of life.

Inspite all these differences we generally are in agreement on certain topics because that is how we understand them from the Word…If we were to old onto pre-induced doctrines from the colonial past then we Adventism is none of them because it came in quite late.

In aAfrica we simply ask, show us from the Word and substantiate your beliefs and convictions… Dont say we gave you favours in time past and expect some in return. No chance! Ours is to obey God through His Word and encourage the “west and northern” countries to do likewise.


However you have not included the more comprehensive experiential time elements.

If people are bailed out then why the challenge to the 5 churches? Why threaten them with taking their candlestick away?

And you are correct that grace teaches (Tit 2:12) so evidently some in the churches were not utilizing the grace…as the case is now

There is forgiving grace and there is fixing grace. Those who don’t get fixed forfeit their forgiveness.

Also my favorite verse is not Rom 8:4. I just use it to challenge the deceived, fanatic antinomian evangelically warped SDA.

Most churchgoers don’t know what gospel , grace, salvation mean.

(jeremy) #114

my understanding is that allowances have been made for the polygamy that goes on in parts of africa…and has NAD commented even once on the frequent wife beatings that go on in s. africa, and elsewhere in africa, even in 2018:

do you think cultures that feature wife beatings are qualified to even comment on whether women should be ordained…

(Lincoln Dunstan) #115

Ray, I am having a job to read my keyboard when I stop and think of just how many of God’s children there actually will be in His Eternal Kingdom. I’ve just watched a video of Shane Willard, speaking on the speck in our brothers eye, when we have some whopping plank in ours!! What an awesome Saviour we have!!

(George Tichy) #116

Since you are so good at providing stats, maybe you can find this information:

Taking any recent year, how much did the SDA Church in general (worldwide) collected in TITHES, and how much was spent in pastors’ WAGES?

(Ray Smith) #117

I’m just glad that God doesn’t think of us this way.


And this is your best Christian example…really is this the best possible reply…is it instructive…is it helpful to your audience or are simply indulging in selfishness backbiting and anger?

We are not in 3rd grade anymore and you know very well that your tone will not produce a positive outcome with adults and people you don’t know. Constructive, persuasive, logical, to the point and honesty is the best way to reach your audience…


So you ignore the great majority of my original post , which included several bible verses, and select one sentence that bothers you?

Any chance that you are being conditioned by smooth, soft sell , sugar coated teachers, who are exhibiting voluntary humility (Col 2:18) because they are chained to a denominational conference pension?


Deceived: Matt 24:24, Jer 17:9
Fanatic: Rom 10:2
Antinomian: Rom 8:7, 2 Thess 2:10
False teachers:2 Pet 2:17, Jude 12