Could the Solution to the Church’s Stalemate Come Out of Africa?

(Kim Green) #166

Oh, brother…BOTH are dangerous in Adventism! :laughing:

(Tim Teichman) #167

I read the original comment before I posted. I don’t know what “check the feed” means. There is no concept here like ‘feed’ that I’ve seen.

Most people wonder. Seems the normal case. Even this statement seems condescending.

Yes, you were very harsh and judgemental, directive, and rather condescending.

This statement/concept does not make any sense to me. There is no such religeous requirement for believers, and to suggest that since God does x or y that people must too seems like a heresy to me. We are not supposed to try to again a god-like state. We are told that is impossible.

What is that something that you see as so clear? I see few discussions here about clear things, as there wouldn’t be anything to discuss.

What is your point? All I can see is your criticism of others, looking down on them on a condensing way, and coating that with pity. You fell sorry for us because we don’t have such simple and obvious things figured out like you do.


For sure he was. As he was cleared by the University of South Africa (UNISA) I think he felt betrayed and couldn’t go back to try and lead a group of people who had already judged him and made up their minds that he is guilty. There were strategic games being played, in the background, to get him out.

(Kim Green) #169

Why do you think that he was “targeted”?

(Lincoln Dunstan) #170

timtelchman, I trust you will have something positive in your life today. Your comments and analysis of what I was trying to say, appears to be of some one looking for negatives. I’m not a troll, i am simply trying to encourage someone who it would appear has negative feelings about their assurance of Salvation in Jesus Christ. And to even think that total salvation in Jesus and what he has given us has not been an open secret since the Reformation, maybe not if you are to only read SDA literature, couldn’t be more obvious.
When I moved out of EGW and the “closed beliefs” I found a joy and freedom in Christ I had never experienced before! And don’t ask me where you have got some idea that I am trying to put across some concept of perfection and having a god-like state mmmm?


There were a few people who wanted to fill his shoes. Many people believed that he was going to be moved to GC at GC session in Texas, but when that didn’t happen another way was needed and when the issue of Paul Charles came up, it was the perfect opportunity to pull him into it as well.

(Kim Green) #172

Always interesting to hear different perspectives. Thanks for conversation.

(Tim Teichman) #173

I wasn’t really looking. It just jumped out at me.

You might try a different tactic then.

It’s clearly not obvious to most people in the world and many people in the church, who consistently appear to believe in salvation by works. Saying it is clearly obvious to a person who more or less has just stated it isn’t for them is condescending. And you continue pushing even after that was noted a few posts back by more than one person.

That’s wonderful.

(Denny) #174

Who’s culture adopts wife beatings as decent??? Your ignorance of the difference between culture and immoral practices is very sad. Should we quote the culture of Americans and how they wiped out the Red Indians there your culture? Or the colonialists in Africa as their culture? Or the murder of young black men there in USA by the police which we are reading daily? Lets not display ignorance here… I’m sorry to be blunt.

There is no SDA church is AFRICA that condones polygamy as a Christian and “fundamental” belief of Adventism in Africa. Zero… I have been in church board long and baptismal class teacher as well and i know how we have dealt with actually new converts coming into the church who were in a polygamous relationship.

This has nothing to do with Aemrica or Africa, but what says the Bible… Our Christianity today is now just about the geopolitical regions as well? SAD.

(Denny) #175

How low can you go George…Someone with a Phd resorting to such language and sugar coating it with a different rendition when we all know what you mean… We know Spectrum will not censure you for this because you are one of the “celebrities” here. But i say please lets respect each other in language and discourse. Thanks.

(jeremy) #176

well, i’m not sure any culture adopts wife beatings as “decent”, but the NY Times says wife beatings are prevalent and normalized in subsaharan africa:

apparently, african men view their wives as property, just as men in ancient bible times did…i suspect that if we’d had a delegation from ancient israel to san antonio, they’d all have voted no on women’s ordination, as well…

if you look carefully, you’ll see that all ancient cultures view women as inherently inferior to men…in asia, for example, female infanticide is still heavily practiced:

the more we study, the more we see that we shouldn’t be surprised at the no votes in san antonio from countries in the global south…these countries cannot consider questions on the value of women objectively…and being adventist doesn’t change their culture of looking at women in a lesser way than men…

in fact it’s really only the egalitarian society of the west, achieved after decades of struggle, that for the first time in the history of the world places women on the same level of value as men…but even now, you can find plenty of women who voted for president trump, and all he represents…and you can find adventists in NAD who see nothing wrong in discriminating against women simply because it was common practice in bible times…

(Denny) #177

You further dig deeper in showing that you follow shallow media that stereotypically typifies Africa…I’m not surprised as many Americans (USA and Canada) don’t even know the difference between Africa and South Africa. They think we are just one country, when the average African can even tell you about some of your past presidents without googling.They believe its also a dark continent such that when they see the metropolitan cities of Dar e Salam, of Joburg or Nairobi or Harare, they get surprised.

Once again, you show ignorance in that we have very robust laws that are totally against any form of discriminatory of harrasing behaviour agaisnt women… Its funny you ignore that in silicone valley the Google employees were just last week protesting against unfair pay for their female colleagues. And just a few weeks/months (cant remember) ago, the BBC employees were complaining about the same issues of unfair salaries. Now tell me about this “moral” west of yours… Should we continue to discuss about how your marketing and advertising industries use sassy’d up women to market/sell items from cars down to sweets??? And the str*p clubs you have all over your continents?

Shall i remind you of the nude beaches and parades constantly happening there? Free the nipple they protest… And you want to talk to me about the moral west? What about Mr Trump and remarks about his daughter if she were not his daughter; what he would have done to her?

Mr Jeremy, please don’t display such here because we Africans read widely my good sir…

The issue of voting No on WO has nothing to do with that “culture” that you are thinking of because these issues were mostly debated in the urban areas… I happended to do my own research at the time and even penned a petition at my local church to be sent up the ladder. I cannot answer for the middle east, but in conclusion i say… Please show some general knowledge and dont post this west is moral stuff here… We can go on and on about the politics etc of the West but we will leave that for politicians.

(Nkosi) #178

Your source, NY times, of coz they know better about Africa than we who live in it.It is this attitude of trying to belittle Africans that I’m at odds with. M"Most African man view women as possessions " lol man which world do you live in. I’m sure you believe in Africa we live in huts and caves with lions and elephants roaming around. Christianity aside, take time to study rain queens in Africa, also take time to study about a typical African family, in Africa we believe a home is built by a woman (wife) .the father is traditionally the bread winner while the mother is the home maker! Lol westerners? Woman is a possession? Really now? Where in Africa

(Kim Green) #179

"i know how we have dealt with actually new converts coming into the church who were in a polygamous relationship."

Curious…how did you resolve these issues?



Don’t laugh to much but I used to think that when I was child.

When I came to Japan for the first time part of me was expecting to see swords and samurai, but nary one in sight.

Things we imagine are often not close to the reality on the ground of places we only heard of before…sigh…:wink:

(Kim Green) #181

Who and what would be “credible” sources for information on Africa?

(Tim Teichman) #182

What terrible practices. A fine “culture” indeed, that supports this sort of horror.

(Tim Teichman) #183

a) She’s not your sister.
b) The whole Rastara affair appears to be a crude and obvious attempt of a cover up. One of the lamer cover ups the church has attempted. Rastara appears to have lied repeatedly about his education and accomplishments.

(Nkosi) #184

You’re just bitter, try laughing at times it helps, else taking a walk, experience the beauty of nature, let some steam off, it also helps .if all fails just remind yourself that the world doesnt revolve around you, that will definitely do the trick

(jeremy) #185

it isn’t a question of the moral west vs. stereotypes that disparage africa…it’s the fact that the west really and truly has achieved a certain level of racial and gender equity for the first time in the history of the world, whereas africa still largely reflects the values of the ancient world, such as that seen in bible culture…

while the church has had very little to do with this achievement in the west, i would think adventists from all over the world would line up with it as soon as possible, since it demonstrates what the bible has been calling for for centuries…in some cases this is going to mean breaking free from local cultural values, such as in africa, and many places in the global south…but in the end, adventists should be presenting a united front, where all, regardless of race or gender, are treated equally and fairly…africa has been eager to jump on the bandwagon of racial equality…but they haven’t been so keen to jump on the bandwagon of gender equality…