Creation Science and the Trustworthiness of God

Not me. I have stated that Genesis is myth. I don’t feel the need to find convoluted arguments to reconcile it with reality.

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Yes, there are many things we cannot know for sure about the original sources and text of the bible. We don’t know who wrote the Gospels, for example. They’re all anonymous works. Also, we also don’t have any original manuscripts for any book of the bible. Not one. We have only copies of copies of copies. And every copy of every manuscript of every book of the bible we have is different than every other copy, sometimes in significant ways.

I did some searching and did find…

Which includes the statement:
"In Exodus the reason [for the Sabbath] is theological, harking back to the creation story in Gen 1:1-2:4a, where God rests on the seventh day after the labor of creation (Gen 2:2). In Deuteronomy the reason is historical remembrance; as the Israelites were freed from slavery in Egypt, they should allow their own slaves one day of rest per week. This is in keeping with Deuteronomy’s humanistic emphasis and concern for the social good.

“In both cases, these reasons were most likely added to an older, shorter version of the Decalogue, that predates its incorporation into Exodus and Deuteronomy respectively. In this sense, the Decalogues as we have them can be seen as receptions of a now lost older Decalogue.”


This article discusses the different ancient copies of the commandments, points out that we still don’t have the most ancient, and that the sources we’ve used for the modern bible don’t agree with recently discovered manuscripts that are older and often shorter than the texts that were used as a source for the bible. It also discuses the practice of “harmonistic editing”, where the scribe would combine text from different versions of the same stories in order to make them seem more alike:


This article discusses some textual reasons to think the reference to creation was a late addition:

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As I was growing up, I didn’t have the slightest suspicion that God did not write the Bible-word for word., Why would we call it the word of God if it hadn’t been established as fundamental fact? But it eventually sank in that the gilt paper and the black leather binding did not prove that God was the Bible’s author.

Every imperfection of any kind, even the most subtle, proves that God was NOT the author
For example:
“Thou shalt not have any gods before ME [First person]
in contrast to
“Thou shalt not take the name of THE LORD thy God in vain”. [third person]

Then why do they say that the Bible is God’s word? Answer: to keep us from realizing that it isn’t…

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Far from Yahweh being the author, we don’t even know the names of most of the humans who wrote the first editions of the documents which eventually were deemed canonical. Most of the writers, even those with names attached, do not claim inspiration/revelation. Others later claimed that for them. Some even deny inspiration/revelation. Oh well, if later unknown people deemed those writings “the word of God” then that must be what they are. Maybe those compilers were inspired… But since there were competing canons, and still are, we would have to decide which canonical compilers were inspired. For that, we would have to be inspired too. Note that the Protestant canon, the Roman Catholic Canon, the Orthodox canon, the Chaldean canon, the Armenian canon, and the Coptic canon all differ. Of course, there were other documents in the early centuries which were deemed canonical (eg The Shepherd of Hermas) by some groups but were later excluded for reasons unknown, so we must also consider those who excluded documents to have been inspired. I’m confused…it would seem that an omniscient being could have found a better way to communicate.

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In my experience any conversation that starts with the phrase “God said…” is going nowhere.

It also seems axiomatic that if an omniscient god wrote a book, it would be a perfect document that could not be read incorrectly or misinterpreted by anyone

And speaking of alternate canons, you might be interested to know some commentators on an Spectrum article about EGW have advocated for increasing the number of books with god’s purported imprimatur by canonizing all of Ms. White’s writings.

That should clear up all of the contradictions and misstatements in all of the previous canons, right?

:flushed:
:rofl:
:yawning_face:

The word day in some contexts can be longer than a 24 hour day. It is idiomatic.

But in Hebrew, when an ordinal is given (day one, day two etc.) it is always a 24 hour one. And besides, each day of the creation week is “…morning evening, day one.” That is a 24 hour day, telling of morning and evening as we recognize as a day. This is not idiomatic usage. These are plainly 24 hour days.

Now if you want to think of them as longer periods, that it is some sort of symbolism, anyone is free to believe as they wish, but the text clearly describes a 24 hour day…

I looked at your links. the “recessions” of the 10 article just tells of the texts that we have from Ex. and Deut., among the Dead Sea Scrolls, and that in some instances, there has been a combination of the two fourth commandments, so that creation and redemption from slavery are both mentioned. But the article does not prove that there was any difference from the texts as we have them from the separate books.

The next link postulates that the second and fourth commandments are late additions because they are longer than the other commandments. Really?? That is scholarship? Speculation for sure, but not necessarily scholarship.

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You think so? You must not know any lawyers :rofl:

However, the 10 are pretty clear. And they are purported to have been written by God.

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“Purported” is the operative word. Who claimed that? Where did he get his information?

I searched the text of all three articles, as I’m not sure what you mean by “the 10 article”, and recessions doesn’t appear in any of them.

The article mentions that some scholars think the ends of both versions of the Sabbath commandment were added, for a couple of reasons.

It does not say that. It says that they were probably originally short like the other eight commandments, and then were embellished by later additions, not that they were added altogether. And yes, the reasons given are based on serious scholarship.

The first article says it nicely as well, in the section titled “Two Revisions of an Older Sabbath Command”, where it’s stated, "In both cases, these reasons were most likely added to an older, shorter version of the Decalogue, that predates its incorporation into Exodus and Deuteronomy respectively. In this sense, the Decalogues as we have them can be seen as receptions of a now lost older Decalogue."

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Its a little more than that - an ordinal associated with Yom without the article in Hebrew prose is poetic - The six day have no definite article and there for is a poetic expression and not literal. This is brought out by Gleason Archer Assoiciate Editor of the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament

“There were six major stages in this work of formation, … it is important to observe that none of the six creative days bears a definite article in the Hebrew text ; translations “ the first day,” “ the second day,” etc., are in error.
The Hebrew says, “And the evening took place, and the morning took place, day one” (1:5). Hebrew expresses “the first day” by hayyom harison , but this text says simply yom ehad (day one). Again, in v. 8 we read not hayyom hasseni (“the second day”) but yom seni (“a second day”). In Hebrew prose of this genre, the definite article was generally used where the noun was intended to be definite; only in poetic style could it be omitted. The same is true with the rest of the six days; they all lack the definite article . Thus they are well adapted to a sequential pattern, rather than to strictly delimited units of time.”
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties , pages 60-61, Baker 1982:

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More than one version of the commandments makes this claim, and yet each version is different from the other:


The Exodus 34 version of the commandments has God making the the claim that He would actually write the commandments:

"Yahweh said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke…"

Then the passage states what will be written, in Yahweh’s voice, which is mostly completely different than the Exodus 20 commandments.

Then later the same passage says:

“Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he [Moses] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.”


So, it seems to me that if we were to dig up the final stone tablets and read them, we would find the commandments from Exodus 34. Right?

Notably, the Sabbath command is short and given without and explanation or reason:

  • Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even during the plowing season and harvest you must rest.

These final commandments - spoken by Yahweh and written by Moses - include the following. And we Christians ignore them all:

  • Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread.

  • The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock. Redeem the firstborn donkey with a lamb, but if you do not redeem it, break its neck. Redeem all your firstborn sons.

  • Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

  • Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Lord Yahweh, the God of Israel.

  • Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

  • Bring the best of the firstfruits of your soil to the house of Yahweh your God.

  • Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

  • No one is to appear before me empty-handed.


Now that I’ve been reminded what the final version of the commandments says (while claiming to be the same as the first version), I have a lot of questions because they actually seem quite unclear to me.

My questions include:

  • How to I appear before Lord Yahweh three times a year? I mean, where do I go? Where is Yahweh?

  • What should I carry when I appear, so as to not be empty-handed?

  • How do I properly celebrate the various festivals mentioned: The Festival of Unleavened Bread, the Festival of Weeks, the Festival of Ingathering, and the Passover Festival?

  • How do I properly offer a blood sacrifice to Yahweh for the Passover Festival?

  • How do I determine what the best of my firstfruits are? Also, where is the house of Yahweh located so I can take them there?


@ajshep , you’ve stated that the commandments are clear. Similarly Ted Wilson has stated that the bible explains itself - that all that’s required is to read it and we’ll all understand it’s plain meaning.

I wonder if Ted can explain why we don’t follow these final commandments - but instead follow the ones that no longer exist, that were smashed by Moses in a fit of rage?

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Just a few days ago I cooked a goat in its mother’s milk. Mea Culpa! What shall I do? This commandment might be the final test before the end comes…

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I suggest a blood sacrifice. And also go appear before Yahweh - but not empty handed.

That should do it.

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Hmmm…

So, eveining, morning is not definitive for day, whether with a definitive article or not, or poetic or not?

And a sequential pattern negates the evening morning nature of a day?

Eveing, morning, day one, sounds very much like a day to me, and I don’t see any way to avoid it. I also do not see that the Encyclopedia that you quote says that long periods of time are suggested.

I do not believe that that is so. It has not been observed. It is postulated, but the examples usually cited, the Darwinian finches or the peppered moths etc.have not proven to be actual evolution, but variation. There is even disagreement about what a species is. And the fossil evidence is interpreted to show evolution, but does not make the assertion of the interpreters a fact. The evidence is circumstantial. It is a a postulate, they actually did not see it happen.

The utter complexity of orangisms, and the change in DNA necessary for large bodily diversification is just impossible.

And as far as life goes, there is no evidence that it can arise spontaneously. None. To believe so is an utter act of faith. Sagan said, “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Claiming that life came from non-life is an extraordinary claim, really really extraordinary, You need some extraordinary evidence. And you have none.

Now life appears designed, even Dawkins admits it. So postulating a designer is not even a leap of faith at all, but a logical conclusion. Not proof, mind you, but a logical conclusion. (inference to the best explanation)

I am thus less a man of faith than those who claim to believe in life from non-life. Shocking, isn’t it.

Oh, yes something happened. A movement began that has grown to 20+ million, a movement tasked with warning the world. That is something.

You will say, silly, nothing really happened that day.

On the day of the crucifixion, only one man died on a cross, something that had happened multiple times before and after. But that day, the death of that man started a movement that has circled the world, and brought hope to millions. Quite the day actually.

Note, these are spoken by Yahweh and written by Moses. The 10 are written by Yahweh himself. There is a difference.

I can’t speak for Ted, but the 10, written by God are clear. No other God’s, no idols, no swearing, etc. Even with he difference in the fourth, they are till clear. Keep the 7th day Sabbath…

Does that small difference keep them from being clear to you? You’re smart, I think not. Even with all the back and forth for the past several posts, the commandments are still clear. I don’t think there will be an excuse when you are called up before the Judegement Bar of God. Nor will I have one.

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Hi Allen, Yes, is very much poetic-- for example-- ereb: evening, twilight; sunset, approaching darkness and boqer, “dawning Evening and Morning each day end with this, except the Seventh-day–because the pause and rest (from creating new life forms) is still going on until NOW.
That there is no evening-morning phrase for the seventh day ([Genesis 2:1–4] and this strongly implies that God’s seventh day is not yet finished, as [Psalm 95:11 ] and [Hebrews 4:1–11 ]. No it does not mean the Weekly Sabbath has no significance then --just the opposite it is the Weekly commemoration of God’s finished work - in creation and in The Cross!

Allen, you are completely correct here, that this Mantra is simply invoking a lie, if it is meant to mean- “we have observed that mutations have been seen to create new organs and new organisms over time.” It’s just not true!! In fact, the only time a mutation has been observed to at all be helpful to an organism is when the mutation breaks something genetically speaking.

Really? No one knows who wrote the Torah. Or how many. Are you aware that no one associated authorship with Moses until the 200’s BCE? That was simply a tradition added to gain credibility.

A movement crying wolf for 178 years is evidence for what? Face saving gullibility? If numbers equate to proof of anything, 1.5 Muslims have you beat.

All modern fields of biology are based on evolution. Medicine, genetics, zoology, botany, etc. Would you really want to be treated for an ailment with procedures based on pre-evolutionary understandings?

Design? Evolutionary theory explains why 98% of all forms of life which have ever existed are now extinct. Various mutations have sent life forms off in countless unsuccessful directions. Only a few have succeeded. If this is design, it has all the characteristics of trial and error. I wonder, which books on evolutionary biology you have actually read? Any? I’m willing to go out on a limb and guess that the answer is “none” and “never”. Staying inside the bubble and only reading creationist literature simply feeds ignorance. Might I suggest “The Greatest Show on Earth”? Or “Why Evolution is True”. These are easy reading for the newly inquisitive mind. Hint: reading critiques of these books doesn’t count.:wink:

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Regular day remains, evening and morning are poetic, but do not lessen the 24 hour nature of the thing described, but actually confirm it.

I have read or heard of the idea that the seventh day is on going, but do not see it as adding to what we know of creation week. Especially in light of the fourth commandment. Yes, God’s rest has been available since the beginning, and is a multifaceted concept. But the 24 hour Sabbath remains, and is a memorial of all the rests mentioned in Hebrews.

Yes! One of the cool things about science is that it doesn’t care what you believe about it.

From:

.

“In a time of great divides over religion and politics, it’s not surprising that we treat evolution the way we do political issues. But here’s the problem: As settled science, evolution is not a matter of opinion, or something one chooses to believe in or not, like a religious proposition.”

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Actually I don’t think the bible says that.

Exodus 20 is the beginning of a long set of laws, spoken by Yahweh, that continue on and on through the beginning of Exodus 24.

Exodus 20 starts with

“And God spoke all these words:”

When Yahweh stops speaking at the beginning of Exodus 24, it says

When Moses went and told the people all Yahweh’s words and laws, they responded with one voice, “Everything Yahweh has said we will do.” Moses then wrote down everything Yahweh had said [Exodus 20 - 23]… Then he took the Book of the Covenant [he had just written] and read it to the people. They responded, “We will do everything Yahweh has said; we will obey.”

Then Yahweh starts conversing with Moses again, and gives many more directives all the way through Exodus 31, which ends with

When Yahweh finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the covenant law, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of Elohim.

The contents of the covenant law are not identified specifically at this point.

Chapter 32 is the story of the Golden Calf, and mid-way is stated:

Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the covenant law in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. The tablets were the work of Elohim; the writing was the writing of Elohim, engraved on the tablets… When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

Then there’s a lot of killing and dying and plague as punishment for the Golden Calf incident.

Then chapter 34 begins with

The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

Moses then goes up the mountain as commanded, bows down to worship Yahweh, and then

Then Yahweh said: “I am making a covenant with you. Before all your people I will do wonders never before done in any nation in all the world. The people you live among will see how awesome is the work that I, Yahweh, will do for you. Obey what I command you today.

And then Yahweh speaks His commands for most of the rest of the chapter, and then

Then Yahweh said to Moses, “Write down these words [I have just spoken], for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” Moses was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.


These last verses are the first time the covenant is actually identified - as the preceding words God had just spoken in Chapter 34.

Chapter 34 is also the only place where the covenant is labeled “The Ten Commandments” in the text (not as a title added later in some bibles). So, if you want to know what “The Ten Commandments” say, Exodus 34 is the place to find them.

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