Crisis in the Heavenly Council


Wow…this is truly an amazing God we serve then isn’t it!

This is the message to be spread far and wide…

(Phil van der Klift) #42

Real hope for a hurting humanity…

(David Okamura) #43

If the book of Job is the oldest manuscript chronological and therefore should be the first book of the Bible -it seems to be the is the consensus of most scholars - then it and the Revelation book- end the entire scripture in a neat package Both have a cosmic council scene. Job’s focus is pain and suffering of mankind whose agency is Satanic. It seems to suggest that God is “betting on Job” to remain faithful in spite of the irrational challenges posed by the Adversary and Job’s trust in God is at stake. In the last book of the Canon, Satan again is featured and we are assured that God’s provision in Christ demonstrates that His trust in humanity and His everlasting love for us will be rewarded . His " bet on humankind " is a " safe bet" Job proved it and Christ has stacked the deck in our favor It didn’t doesn’t look like it when we see the way humanity has behaved and is behaving. Satan seems to have the upper hand . I do not see God as vindictive or a harsh human-like judge That’s exactly what Satan portrays Him to be. That is a distorted and a total misrepresentation of His character. Satan tried that on Job and failed If your view of God is based on human judgment then I would reject that view He risked everything to endow humanity the freedom of choice which is what love requires. He makes no demands on us It is up to the individual to derive meaning for life by taking up the responsibilities that come our way

(Patrick Travis) #44

David, I view it a bit differently. He sees us as but from dust but has mercy on our iniquities. Ps. 103.
Our fallen free Will is lacking. We are completely dependent on His grace in Christ.

(David Okamura) #45

Hi Patrick
I don’t know if you have heard of or watched Dr Tim Jennings on you-tube. He is the Adventist psychiatrist in Tenn… I’ve learned a lot from his interpretation of the scriptures particularly about the nature of God . I agree with his view of seeing the universe in terms of divine design. He asks you to see that universe can be understood through the laws that govern its physical properties and movement. Like-wise humanity operates or lives optimally when His design laws for the human family are understood and implemented by each individual. The problem we humans experience is we can choose to ignore His design for us and that we do so at our peril. The problem is not the design laws but our ignorance of them… For example you can choose to violate the law of gravity and jump off a cliff. The law of gravity is not the problem That is the design protocal for the physical universe. You are free to ignore it. For a fuller explanation of this design view, watch Dr Tim Jennings lecture on " 7 steps to moral decision making" on you-tube." It has help me see life in a more holistic way. Seeing the world through the lens of God’s design made me realize that all the theology and interpretation of scripture makes more sense when seen this way. It is clear that humanity has deviated from His design for us and when He came to live among us, His design became clearer. In accordance with His nature of love ,He demonstrated He is not aloof and ready to sit in judgment on our misunderstanding and implementation of His grand design. I think He has risked every thing and His reputation that "He is love "and that we will vindicate His trust in us. I find it rather awesome to think He trusts us to love as He does.

(Patrick Travis) #46

Hi Dave, Thanks. I am aware of Tim and disagree with the premise of his views.
Tim, as others seems to ignore all of God’s other attributes and picks “love” which he defines in a way that insinuates God’s other attributes are not part of God’s holistic character of love.

(Steve Mga) #47

God’s Judgment.
Coming up in the Lectionary Readings for Feb 10, is Psalm 138.
In verse 6 we have this – “Though the Lord is on high, yet He regards and cares
for the lowly [humble]. But the proud He keeps His distance and knows from afar.”
A lot of God’s “JUDGMENTS” are letting humans alone to their own devices, which
much of the time, in the long run, are detrimental and dangerous to life, safety,
relationships, and success.
Should God COMPLETELY leave us, our bodies would disintegrate into a mass of
gases and a small pile of minerals and a bright light from the explosion.
Perhaps this is what John saw and thought it was Fire from the throne. And the OT
prophet saying we would walk on the ashes of the wicked.

(Patrick Travis) #48

Hi Steve & Dave. @daveokamura
Consider Ps 136:10-26 as an example of God’s justice, faithfulness and His Hesed/stedfast love.

To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting
11 And brought Israel out from their midst,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
17 To Him who smote great kings,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
18 And slew mighty kings,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting:
19 Sihon, king of the Amorites,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
20 And Og, king of Bashan,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
21 And gave their land as a heritage,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

23 Who remembered us in our low estate,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting,
24 And has rescued us from our adversaries,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting;
25 Who gives food to all flesh,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
26 Give thanks to the God of heaven,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.

(Steve Mga) #49

Certain times of the year this Psalm is said in Jewish service.
One side of the room does Half Verse. The other side answers with
“ki l’olam hasdo” [His love endures forever].
It is done with a sing-song chant. That is the best way to do this one.
This Psalm begins with God being at the beginning, before anything.
Then God visits the planet Earth and creates, and sets the Sun on fire
and the moon reflecting the Sun at night. And the stars as pin point
lights in the sky.
Then goes to the Final Event in Egypt that allowed His people to “Go!”
[But God gave them 9 chances before that to say, “Go!”.]
Finishes up with “who gives food to all flesh, ki l’olam hasdo.
Praise the God of heaven; His love endures forever.”

(Scott M Esh) #50

Yes, by that statement he has lost all credibility as a Bible student. If that is his fundamental belief about God, that God is confused, then every single thing that he writes has no choice but to be severely flawed as it is tainted by his lack of belief that God knows exactly what he is doing. Follow the logic:

If God is confused, then His writings are confused, thus rendering the entire Bible incorrect because it no longer can be authoritative truth because a confused God wrote a confused book.

If this is truly what he believes, he should pack up his books, take his writings, and go home.

(Patrick Travis) #51

Well, I know that view of “process” doesnt work for me and I don’t feel it fits the metanarrative of scripture. The assumption is assumed true and taints everything afterward.

(Scott M Esh) #52


I submit to you that you completely misunderstand what he wrote. I believe that you are carefully reading parts of the verses, but assuming parts of others by accident.

And for the record, multiple exegetists is a weak argument in your favor. The Bible is littered with people in power that didn’t have a clue. Martin Luther took on the whole world by himself, but he was more than able to deal with the experts because he was on God’s side and defended himself based on God’s word.

(Patrick Travis) #53

Your entitled yo your view. I read it 20 yrs. Back and it is good reformed covenant theology.
Care to elaborate where I missed tbe boat?

(Patrick Travis) #54

Are you sure your comments are related to this strand and me?

(Patrick Travis) #55

I never heard back from you?

(Scott M Esh) #56

There are three salvations in the Bible and you appear to know only one.

Can you name and clarify all three?

Without a knowledge of all three, the truth about the judgment cannot be understood.


Be careful - It’s easy to misconstrue what others say when you are looking for ways to do so. In most cases, it is also easy to understand the core concept of what others say when you are looking for that.

My concept of God’s ultimate character trait as Love in no way denies His other traits of Sovereignty, Justice or Mercy. It simply means that those other character aspects are exercised within the framework of Love by God’s own choice to do so. The revelation of Jesus in the Gospels is the ultimate place to see God as clearly as we can. All other characterizations of Him must comport (or be re-understood) with the display of godliness as shown by the life of Jesus. There can be no variance between the character of God and that of Jesus.

The Gospel records (the 4 combined) of the life of Jesus are the best expose’ of God’s character anywhere in the Bible - bar none. All other scriptural references to God must be brought into line with the revelation of Jesus Himself.

Simply because some people pit God’s character traits against each other, in some competitive effort to eliminate all but one, does not mean it is so. Do not ascribe to those who see God’s ultimate character trait as Love as though they somehow have convinced themselves His other traits don’t exist (unless they explicitly say so).

I have noticed that those who see God’s Sovereignty or His Justice or His Mercy as His ultimate character trait (whether alone or where that selected trait provides a framework for all exercise of the other traits) have an image of God that is out of character with Jesus.

Whatever is God’s recompense, it must align with His character of Love as demonstrated by Jesus. Jesus said they are condemned already - by their own choice.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. (John1:1-5.KJV)

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John1:14-18.KJV)

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John3:13-19.KJV)

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father? (John14:6-9.KJV)

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him. (1John4:14-16.KJV)

(Patrick Travis) #58

I fail to see your point to me that I havent said. I have said all of God’s attributes are a part of who He is which defines what love is. God is love.
Jesus is love when He comes forth against the nations in judgment in Rev.19 just as He was love in restoring the sight of the blind or feeding the 5000.
Some prefer to see God’s wrath as unbecoming and not love. I don’t find that in scripture.

(Patrick Travis) #59

Did you recognize you were talking to the wrong person earlier? I’m open to some humiity on your part.

(Spectrumbot) closed #60

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