Daniel and Empire: Then and Now

@cadge22 @ABEN @cfowler

About Sunday laws. Seriously, can anyone think the Islamic world is going to allow a SUNDAY law - even in the US? Maybe a Friday law. What would a Sunday Law look like? No shopping at the mall - they’re no longer an issue - we can get everything on the net.

Canada had Sunday laws some time ago. Only some specific items were allowed to be sold on Sunday - to the point that some isles in grocery stores had yellow crime scene tape baring access. That’s after concessions had been made to even open grocery stores. They couldn’t keep that up and put it to a vote, and Sunday shopping hit Canada some 30 years ago.

But more to the point - what’s the big deal? Is someone going to come to the house and make me go to church on a Sunday? Will the police prevent access to church on Friday - Saturday - Wednesday? That would be a police state, and it would be all over at that point any way.

And a bigger point yet - Yes, I have to say it - Saturday is not the original Sabbath anyway, as it was instituted (changed) by the Romans. Even the Jews are worshipping on a man-made Sabbath.


What would be really helpful is throwing the president of the United States in a lions den and asking the evangelicals to pray for a lion-miracle again. That could actually resolve America’s current #1 problem… :innocent: :innocent:
We need a miracle, badly!!! :wink: :wink:


Agreed, Sirje.

Will churches (or some sort of buildings) be built to accommodate 7 billion people? This seems quite nonsensical.

I think that if (or when) there is a one world system that includes a religion, I think it will be some sort of amalgamation of religions so as to be acceptable to all, even non-believers. It won’t be “Christian”.

And yes…the Saturday on the Gregorian calendar is not the Sabbath that the Jews observed.

Also, I always found it very hypocritical when Adventists forced mail deliveries/services to accommodate them, when there were non-Adventists in the communities. How is that okay? :thinking: :roll_eyes: :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


While living in the SDA community during and after being in college at AUC (may she rest in peace), the post office in South Lancaster, Mass. was clogged with people accessing their mailboxes at sundown on Saturdays - never understood that - still don’t. By that reasoning we shouldn’t turn on lights or use any other utilities provided by various companies - for which we pay even for Sabbath. It’s all so arbitrary and makes no sense. Maybe back when we heated with wood and lit our homes with oil lamps…


He’s been living in that lion’s den -for the past three+ years. :pouting_cat:


When I was at Madison College, the Postal Employees worked on Saturday
as they do most places.
The only difference was that the Window was not open. So postal delivery
in the mail boxes was usually available in the afternoon.
There was Madison, Tennessee
There was Madison College, Tennessee
post offices.

Yes, the PO was open til noon, but SDAs didn’t descend on the boxes until after vespers, for some reason.

This piece is a fine example of just what we need: to learn how to read apocalyptic with a view to guidance toward faithfulness today.

The conventional interpretation founders for being inadequate to historical reality. There have been numerous empires since the Roman Empire, and numerous ones that were geographically larger than Rome. But the most serious problem is that the conventional interpretation steers attention away from present danger and opportunity into distracting speculation.

Distraction is an enemy of discipleship.



Yes, the window was closed so you couldn’t send out a pkg. to be mailed, or buy stamps, etc.


A couple of things -

… faithfulness to what …

Placing new faces on old concepts isn’t going to make us more faithful to what’s going to get us through to the end. As you say, the basic evil comes on the scene in various times and circumstances, and with various faces; but it really has just one identity, no matter whose face it uses. Instead of focusing on all the possible characters that could be the enemy, wouldn’t it be better to focus our faithfulness to the power that will take us through to the end.

The only way to identify the counterfeit is not to study all the counterfeits, but to know the original. We are talking about the “antichrist” are we not? And yes, distraction is the enemy of discipleship - and there is no better distraction than trying deal with peripheral issues that pop up on this globe in various forms. Every generation has had its “antichrist”.


Huh? Are these events mutually exclusive? Why cannot they be concurrent? “The last movements will be rapid ones” I have read somewhere.

The church has been shaking for a long time now - and the message back in 1844 was “any time now” - 176 years ago. “Rapid” is a relative term.

I think Steve was being a littler “tongue in cheek”. :upside_down_face:

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Said the guy who was sent to prison for financial fraud and ran a Christian amusement park to boot. What a joke!


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The OT views of God ran in quite parallel fashion to those of Israel’s older neighbors. Those people groups believed that their gods were with them if they were faithful, and punished them with defeat and humiliation if they were not. Israel’s view of YHWH was no different. It was a tribal view of deity. It is why it is so dangerous today to view the OT as normative for how God engages with nations, and people groups.

To see the clearest picture, one must look to the NT, and see what Jesus said and did in relation to such matters. If we do, we find that Jesus frustrated the desires of his countrymen and even his closest followers for a military solution to Roman occupation. He refused to be drafted into the “God is on our side to get the immoral pagans out of our land movement.” He refused to give priority to his own tribe, bloodline, or soil, over/against Samaritans and Gentiles in general, as if God gave them favored nation status. He finally said to Pilate, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight.” IOW, according to Jesus, God’s dealings with the kingdoms and power players of this world was not to play the same power games as them. It wasn’t to favor one group or nation over another, and to intervene on their behalf because of their religious profession or lack of one. It got Jesus crucified.

Jesus inaugurated a kingdom, the reign of God, that was like leaven. It grows silently and unobtrusively amidst the noise and clamor of nations, armies, strife, and conflict. These are human endeavors in which Jesus played no part during his life. And, if we believe that Jesus gives us the clearest revelation of God, as the NT claims all over the place, we can thus assume that God plays little to no part in such endeavors now. If we assume that he does, like the OT writers did, we have to then explain how God was involved in and guided the Holocaust, the pogroms of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, and countless atrocities perpetrated not only by nation states, but by people groups and religious bodies throughout history in his name.

If we believe in Jesus, we can never assume like so many evangelicals, and their patron saint in the WH, that God is on the side of America against the Muslim hoards. Jesus has no part in that thinking and rhetoric. It’s why the people wanted to throw him off a cliff in Nazareth at the beginning of his public ministry (see Luke 4), and why many professing believers today would want to do the same if truly confronted with him and his message.

It’s too bad that this article, in giving a proposed explanation of God’s involvement in the political world, jumped ahead a thousand years after the template of Daniel, and skipped over Jesus in the middle of it all.




the old adage is that history repeats itself because no one was listening.


Noah had 120 years to preach righteousness by faith.
The church’s stand in 1888 was …we do not want righteousness by faith.
We have had 132 years to live with our rejection of righteousness by faith.
Now that the 22 October 1844 Judgment Hour of the dead has ended (22 February 1928)
and the 14 October 1929 Judgment hour of the living has ended (14 February 2013)
and we have been almost 7 years in the final sealing time
(Like Noah was 7 days in the ark before the rain fell)
The wait will not be much longer for the Lord to wrap up the final shaking



Except you have no good solid foundation of biblical exegesis for your date setting. We do, though, have Jesus saying that no man knows the day nor the hour and that it is not for his disciples to know the times or seasons for God’s full restoration of his kingdom/rule. But, have at it…



The irony is he’s probably right about it not being “much longer”. The one big hurdle the date keepers have is finding the one person in the SDA church that keeps all the commandments so perfectly that Jesus can leave the Most Holy Place in heaven.


I just can’t make any assumptions concerning timing anymore, Sirje. Maybe he’s correct, maybe not. The timing is not what the NT stresses. Faith, hope, and love are, no matter when Jesus returns. The traditional Adventist preoccupation for 176 years with all this helps lead to sinless perfectionism. All part of the recipe…