Defending Last Generation Theology


(Frankmer7) #181

No one I know who stands against LGT believes in salvation in ones sins, or a cheap grace. No one who stands in active rebellion and resistance to Christ can claim belonging to Christ. That is the biblical picture of sin…estrangement from God.

But, what we do stand against is this idea that one will achieve an absolute, sinless perfection during this present age…where we won’t make mistakes, where we won’t fall short of perfection in every thought, word, and deed. Even Wesley, who preached the idea of Christian perfection, said that it could be pushed to the point where it simply is not believable.

This is what LGT does. It’s simply not believable on a real life, practical level. And, the proof is in the pudding. I’ve yet to meet one proponent of it who has achieved such a state…and I personally know one of the most vocal proponents of it. I’ve yet to see it produce healthy fruit in anyone who advocates for it. In fact, I’ve seen just the opposite… divisiveness,( I’ve seen a congregation nearly torn apart over it) spiritual pride, morbid introspection, judgmental attitudes towards others who are perceived to not measure up in lifestyle or doctrinal belief, a wearing of external spiritual masks to cover the internal shortfall going on inside, a lack of relational spirituality that looks outward to others as fellow travelers who can empathize and help one another with each others burdens, depression from never measuring up, all the way to suicide over fear of not being perfect enough to pass through the judgment without a mediator.

It is sick theology, it is a misreading of the state of and call to holiness in the bible, and it is simply heresy. It needs to be called what it is.

Frank


(jeremy) #182

BINGO…i strongly suspect that LGT has been invented in order to counter the so-called salvation in sin theology, sometimes dubbed The New Theology, which some sources blame on the 1957 Questions on Doctrine, put out by some in the church to counter the cult charge the church was combating at the time, but which other sources blame on desmond ford’s strong over-emphasis on justification…in all honesty, the concept of salvation in sin is a bit of an exaggeration…no-one explicitly believes that open, willful sinners can be saved, to my knowledge, but it is true that they fail to logically close off this possibility…

but while it effectively destroys any possibility for salvation in sin, LGT has certainly overshot the mark…it’s most serious flaws are its denial of original sin, taught explicitly in paul, john and egw; its denial of the sinless fallen human nature of christ, taught implicitly in paul and john, but explicitly in egw; and its denial of ongoing justification, taught implicitly in paul and john, but explicitly in egw…

it is possible that the last chapter hasn’t been written on LGT, and that some of its champions will eventually see its sharp contradictions with egw, especially, and refine the theory accordingly…


(Frankmer7) #183

Sharp contradictions with EGW…Lol!! It depends on which way you turn her wax nose.

Frank


#184

Actually, it was the other way. The New Theology, Righteousness by Faith in Christ Alone, addressed the Brinsmead Perfectionism movement and LGT that emerged.

Not sure how one can “refine” LGT. If the expectation is perfection reproducing the character of Christ in thousands of people in a certain generation, there will never be a last chapter.


(Stan Lastings) #185

Thanks much Phillip. Your further exposition of where this theology leads was eye opening.


(Stan Lastings) #186

Thank you so much Cfowler. Very much appreciated.


(jeremy) #187

but LGTers don’t usually know anything about brinsmead…typically, they’re reacting against ford and QOD…in fact The New Theology is a term invented by LGTers like the standish twins and john grosboll’s Steps to Life to emphasize their take that it is a departure from historic adventism…i don’t think they see themselves as a mere reincarnation of brinsmead, at all…they see themselves as a return to historic adventism, which they are to some extent…that is, they are a reincarnation of the butlers of the world who rejected jones and waggoner and egw in 1888…

but ford, of course, definitely had brinsmead in his sights…i suspect he said what he said in order to counter brinsmead, but then got caught up in the momentum of his own excesses…

so it seems LGTers are simply one more iteration of the pendulum swings between perfectionism and grace that’s been happening in the church from the very beginning…


#188

Weren’t the Standish Brothers in bed with Brinsmead back in Australia days? There really isn’t a break between Brinsmead’s perfectionism and Andreason, who emphasized perfectionism in LGT form back from at least the mid-1950s.

What’s interesting is that Brinsmead flip-flopped and began publishing Verdict. I remember reading the New Theology journals, Evangelica and the newsletter Limboline in the early 1980s. We still have a box of these ancient relics from the 1970s to 80s, along with Question on Doctrine in our book collection, given to me and each sibling my our pastor father.

Knowing him and hearing Des many times, I could never envision him “getting caught up in the momentum of his own excesses.” He was totally sola scriptura; everything he said or wrote was founded on scripture. He didn’t get carried away blindly in someone else’s extremes. His views had foundations.


(jeremy) #189

it may be that they were…it’s just that none of my sources, which is how i know about LGT, know about brinsmead…

i know that this was his mantra, by which i think he meant at least partially, that it didn’t concern him whether or not he agreed with egw…of course it didn’t occur to him that when the reformers coined the term, there wasn’t the phenomenon of egw to consider…i remember that ford used the sola scripture mantra a number of times in his 1979 forum presentation…but i’ve seen for myself that his separation of justification and sanctification, and minimization of sanctification, isn’t biblical (he’s called our sanctification “a mess”)…there are too many texts that talk about sanctification as a test of fellowship, and as the reason we’re called into fellowship with christ (there are some things right in LGT)…

significantly, minimizing sanctification leads logically to minimizing IJ, which is just what we see in ford, and essentially all non-adventist evangelicals…this requires a systemic denial of any historicist approaches to the prophecies in daniel and revelation, which is the hermeneutic all the reformers used, and it definitely requires a separation from egw…i don’t know what you know about ford’s 1979 forum presentation at PUC, in which he tried to reduce egw’s inspiration to less than doctrinal significance…but it really was very savage…he was almost in a frenzy at times…he seemed to have a physical need to destroy her influence…i can’t help but think, in subsequent more sober moments, that he must have thought he went too far…i’ve seen a video were he’s defended egw’s plagiarism, almost in a bid to backtrack a little…but egw’s plagiarism was his main weapon against her in the 1979 forum…of course it could be that i’m being too generous…

it is certainly the case that ford never formally retracted anything he’s said against egw, even while his daughter sought reconciliation with the church, which one would think he would have been in on…it is also the case that none of ford’s followers have any time for egw (egw haters flock to ford like white supremacists flock to trump)…so the damage is done…and now that ford has passed, i think it has to be considered his legacy now…after-all, there are other free gracers out there…the entire non-adventist protestant world are into justification salvation, with little if any focus on sanctification…


(Elmer Cupino) #190

I tried to watch it all for the simple reason of learning how any individual can sell an inferior product so successfully.


(jeremy) #191

lol…he’s not as good as trump, who really takes the cake…

but guess what…i’m here at trump tower on Chicago’s Magnificent Mile…the guy does know how to do hotels…


(Elmer Cupino) #192

Are you there to perform with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra?


(jeremy) #193

unfortunately no…the chicago symphony is on strike :disappointed_relieved::unamused:…i had originally hoped to see bartok’s bluebeard castle oh well…

i’m just here to pass the time…magnificent mile is a great place to take in materialism on steroids, as is trump tower, actually, and shedd aquarium is definitely worth seeing - there’s no chance you can believe in evolution after you see the incredible complexity of life on display there…plus i was able to go to bein and fushi’s to authenticate my violin…they’re the premier authenticating outfit in the world, just on the south end of magnificent mile…

but trump tower has a great gym overlooking the river running into the lake, plus the room i’m in has an amazing bathroom…the huge soaker tub fills up with a horizontal 10-inch sheet of hot water in just a few minutes…the king bed is probably 30 or 40% bigger than normal…

chicago just elected a black lesbian as mayor last night (rahm emanuel retired)…so they’re progressive and very goal-oriented, no question…the city has a lot of energy…


(Steve Mga) #194

Apparently you have so far kept out of the “crime wave” in Chicago.


(George Tichy) #195

Did you meet any Russians when you visited the Trump Tower?.. LOL


(jeremy) #196

i don’t know if the part of town i’ve been in is crime ridden…i’ve been pretty much outside all day, in and around the Loop, and all along the magnificent mile and the river walk, and everybody’s seemed friendly and safe…i didn’t go into the west or the south, which i’ve heard is dangerous…i also didn’t go north to boystown or the gay ghetto this time, which can have a lot of theft and rowdy party types, especially after midnite…

actually this guy running on one of the numerous treadmills in the gym area i was in earlier today, and also saturday and monday, sounded like he could have been russian…but more ominously, yesterday there was a huge chinese party touring the gym and the spa and pool area…they were also in the restaurant earlier this evening…i hope they aren’t planning to buy this hotel…it’s great the way it is now…my only complaint is that the lobby is a bit on the small side for a hotel on this level…i tend to like huge, open lobbies, with numerous little corners to disappear in, like the W hotels and most Hyatt’s have…

one interesting note: i saw someone who looked a lot like melania in the restaurant yesterday…in fact i had to do a double take…but it wasn’t her…melania, at least on TV, is better-looking, and in better shape…melania also usually wears 8-inch heels…this lady, who was decked in all kinds of diamonds, was definitely still good-looking, but she had more usual dress shoes (she was looking at me, but pretending not to)…


(Leandro) #197

Just like some limits discussed in calculus. We can only approach that limit but never can we touch it. :disappointed_relieved:


(Leandro) #198

I think, the sda sermon about eve committing sin because she wondered away from adam’s side is wrong. How sure are we that if eve had not wondered away from adam, satan cannot temp them to sin? Doug though was right that we are always divided into two categories. The SDA church is (largely) composed of those whose empathy clouded their their common sense and those who take advantage of that other group’s empathy.


(jeremy) #199

the horizontal asymptote of y = 0 is a good way to think of it…


(Harry Elliott) #200

21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness. (Lev 16:21)

All of their sins and sinfulness, not just their confessed sins.

Incidentally, I find no explicit scriptural evidence that Israel saw the sanctuary services as a description future rituals in heaven.