Defending Last Generation Theology


(Patrick Travis) #141

I have been watching the same story now for 50+ yrs.hoping it would change. It hasn’t and wont.


(George Tichy) #142

Thanks Jeremy, but no thanks.
I read enough of EGW in my youth - the whole collection available at that time. Now I stick to the Bible only. She wrote good things, and some are a little off. But in general, good inspirational reading to encourage Christian life. But not to be used for doctrine purposes.
I actually do not remember her preaching perfectionism, now aka LGTarianism. It’s some people, as always, that distort what she wrote (or even copied… :wink: )


(George Tichy) #143

I still think you are putting in Des’ mouth words that never spoke.


#144

This.

What a fantastic promise. No relying on our own goodness. Not a moment without our Saviour who has mediated for us. We are truly safe in the arms of Jesus.


(David) #145

Some folks in the seventh day Adventist church put a lot of stock in Ellen G White. I’ve already quoted some statements by EGW that directly undermine the integrity and authority of God’s word. Below is another quote by EGW that contradicts the divine interpretation that Matthew gave for Isaiah 53:4.

By taking upon Himself man’s nature in its fallen condition Christ did not in the least participate in its sin. He was subject to the infirmities and weaknesses of the flesh with which humanity is encompassed, “that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses” [Matthew 8:17]. 17MR 25.5

You can clearly see that she quotes Matthew 8:17 to support a particular view of Christ that was frequently emphasized in the early days of the SDA church. A.T. Jones nearly fell off the deep end when he interpreted Paul’s expression, “likeness of sinful flesh” (Rom. 8) to mean Christ had flesh full of sin. To Ellen White’s credit she corrected Jones on his error but the tendency to believe similar ideas persists in some SDA circles. The light bearers group in the '80s had similar views.

But back to my point. Matthew is saying that Christ’s healing ministry is the fulfillment of Isaiah 53:4. Matthew never said what Ellen White tried to make him say, that Christ “taking our infirmities and bearing our sicknesses” was Him taking our fallen human nature.

Matt. 8:16 When evening had come, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed. And He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were sick, 17 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying:

“He Himself took our infirmities
And bore our sicknesses.”

I guess the question to ask is, who are you going to believe? Ellen White or Matthew? My vote goes to Matthew. Ellen White, in a multitude of cases, from her misinterpretation of Revelation to her undermining the integrity of God’s word has proven herself (to me anyway) to be a false prophet.


(George Tichy) #146

“Disciples always look only to their Lord and follow him.”

(Bonhoeffer, in “Discipleship”)


(jeremy) #147

well this is definitely parroting the fordian view that egw was a “pastoral prophet”, nothing more, and that she couldn’t be used for doctrine…how convenient: we must look to theologians like him to understand what the bible is saying…

ultimately, undermining the inspiration of egw is what des ford will be remembered for…i think this is the real reason why neal wilson acted to remove his ministerial credentials so decisively, his views on IJ notwithstanding…


(Stan Lastings) #148

Thank you Phillip for your replies…I have not be able to locate D Batchelors sermon on the differences between men and women. Is it possible for you to share the link? Thank you in advance.


(George Tichy) #149

As I always said, in the SDAC you can say whatever you want, but do not touch the prophet! If you do, it will certainly have “grave consequences”.:wink:

I do not share your opinion that Des will be remembered for what you mentioned. The memory of him will be about something much bigger and way more meaningful: intellectual honesty, humility, and preaching Jesus as our Savior.


(George Tichy) #150

Google it! Consulting any physiology book would do it as well… :wink: :innocent: :innocent:


(jeremy) #151

we’re talking about what he’ll be remembered for within the SDAC, not within his circle of followers…do you really think he was sacked for questioning IJ…i don’t…i think it was his attack on egw…that was certainly the thing that was talked about at the time…


(George Tichy) #152

As I said, don’t touch the prophet, no matter what!


#153

Yes…

And his anti-perfection, righteousness through Christ alone proclamations.


(Frankmer7) #154

Cults operate like this, George. Criticize the venerated leader, or expose them, and you’re consigned to outer darkness! You’re dialoguing with one who has drunk the Kool-Aid…gallons! Good luck and God bless!

Frank


(George Tichy) #155

Frank, it is obvious that the Kool-Aid is very addictive… Or is it that people just happen to like it so much?.. :laughing:


#156

I couldn’t care less.


(Kim Green) #157

Well…you must because you wrote it. :rofl:


(Kim Green) #158

"Adventism introduces these preoccupations over such concerns to the detriment of Christian freedom, love, and unity. It has made and continues to make an obsession with perfection a toxic influence on personal faith and community because of its tendency to lead people into a continual, morbid introspection, as opposed to an outward looking to the needs of others."

The denomination’s greatest Christian challenge…so succinctly and fluidly said, Frank!


#159

I just want to help Normal McNulty out here. “Jesus awaits” because our commission to spread HIS gospel has not reached the whole world. Plain and simple. He said until THIS gospel goes to the whole world, He will not return. In an age of the most sophisticated technology, the Gospel should be reaching out to the ends of the earth. We are indeed reaching out to the ends of the earth, but not with the Gospel. Why? Because we dont understand the Gospel! The Gospel means Good News. If I have to stand before God in my own robe of righteousness that, even at my very best, is as filthy rags, then I might as well throw in the towel NOW. The Gospel is a FREE gift, the bible says. If I have to pay for my salvation with my own merits, then what part is free? Where’s the Good News in that? “There is NONE righteous, no not one.” Believing and accepting that Christ died and then was buried, resurrected on the third day, and later ascended on high and sat down at the right hand of the father to make intercession for us…THIS is the Good News of the Gospel. Let’s spread it like peanut butter!

The Apostle Paul said if any man or even an angel preach any other gospel, let him be accursed. The SDA and many other denominations are delaying Christ’s coming. We spread the prosperity gospel, the gospel of veganism, the smoke-free gospel, the clothesline gospel, the gospel of aceticism, the gospel of good works, etc etc infinitum! When will this insanity end?

Jesus said if we believe, we HAVE eternal life. Believe what? That He is our Substitute first and foremost. I died, was buried, and raised alive with Christ. What He did on the cross was credited to my account. He paid a debt that He did not owe, and I am now debt-free. My credit score is in goodstanding according to the standards of Justifax, Sanctifax, and Glorifax. And I check my credit score daily with John 3:16…that whosoever believeth shall not perish but have eternal life. I believe.


(jeremy) #160

there are so many people who are anti-perfection now…and everybody, including every LGTer you’ll ever meet, claims to be proclaiming righteousness through christ alone…i mean i’ve personally heard TW preach righteousness through christ alone, along with every other pastor i can think of…do you think maybe there’s an effort to make desmond ford out to be another martin luther, who died 473 yrs ago, by making the church out to be a catholic citadel, replete with the sale of indulgences that rubbed luther the wrong way…i’m thinking now that this particular theme is getting a bit tired…as you know, george knight used it in his opposition to the GC’s recent power grab…

it’s hard to say, but i do know the buzz that dominated everything right after that PUC adventist forum presentation by ford, way back in 1979…it wasn’t fall-out from christ’s righteousness, or some anti-perfection message…it was an extremely strong reaction to ford’s consignment of egw to what he called “pastoral prophet” status, which many, including some faculty, considered to be a satanic attack on her prophetic authority that they had witnessed with their own eyes…

i’m pretty sure that it was this reaction that spread from PUC to the GC like wild fire in a matter of days, and sealed ford’s fate…