Des Ford: The Perils of Being Right


(Cfowler) #182

Mmmm…that’s quite a bombshell statement. Sadly, not shocking though.


(reliquum) #183

Allowing the institutional church to destroy itself, yes, that may be merciful, right?


(Allen Shepherd) #184

That could be the path it takes.

But this is a silly comment. Have you ever tried to help people that do not want to be helped? Frustrating and fruitless, and only making yourself miserable. And besides, a fool’s errand. That is the situation with the wicked.

But I would rather see an answer to my objections rather than a curt remark.


(George Tichy) #185

WOW, @ajshep’s sword is really out of control. :open_mouth: I see him taking almost everyone into some “work.” Man, he is going berserk after the “fools!” :wink: :innocent:


(Allen Shepherd) #186

George,

Well, your comment does not reflect any engagement in the dialogue, but more a diversion from it, like what the jesters of old did for their audiences, as I recall. If you want to be part of the discussion, then be my guest, I will answer.

But I was just fulfilling the mission of Spectrum, “Community Through Conversation”…


(George Tichy) #187

Thanks Allen, but no thanks. No engagement. Don’t want to force you into dealing with another “fool.”… :wink:


(reliquum) #188

George, he is just here to “help” us fools…give him some slack!
Didn’t you know its for our good, due to his benevolence!


(George Tichy) #189

I am really touched… And he does it for free? (I charge a fee for service…)
But I am the last “fool” in line to be helped by him, “believe me, believe me”… :innocent:


(Patrick Travis) #190

Allen, Sorry but eternal hell is not part of TULIP. But, for many SDA’s the IJ has felt like it. Works without assurance.
PS. There are also many levels of Calvinist. 3 1/2, 4, 4 1/2, 5. That is a general working acrostic designed to refute Arminius…and those who would save themseves.


(David R Larson) #191

Sorry! I responded to this twice by mistake.


(David R Larson) #192

I figured out on my own earlier than I can recall. Either I will go to heaven or I wont. If I do, Ill have a lot of fun. If I dont, I wont know the difference. Thats the way the situation looked to me when I was a child and it still does.


(Scott M Esh) #193

Hi Harry,
Just for the record, I never once said a single derogatory statement toward Desmond, I specifically stated that I thought he was a fine Christian, sincere in his beliefs, and even that I thought he would be in heaven. That message was totally ignored by everyone on the thread.

I then made a simple statement that I heard him speak, telling what he believed, and that I didn’t believe in his position. That was all it took for everyone and his brother to turn on me and attack me. I then repeated a second time that I had great respect for him as a person, but not what he believed. Again,I was instantly trashed by all of his defenders.

I then realized that you and others had no interest in truth, but only what supported your predetermined ideas that agreed with Des Ford.
That is not open mindedness, but closed mindedness. At that point, I realized that any points that I had to make would fall on deaf ears, so I determined not to “contribute” to the discussion, because no matter what I shared, no one would listen. Worse yet, everyone defending Des would simply attack, not only anything I wrote, but also as much as they could of my character. I have much to share, but you are totally right, why should anyone listen to anything I have to share if their minds are already completely made up, and they will attack anything I say, whether it is truth or not?

All of this was started by me simply stating that I respected the man, but disagreed with his beliefs.

Every time I get on Spectrum, all that I ever see on the threads are people trying to destroy important concepts about Christianity. People talking about removing Revelation from the Bible, attacking the I J, stating that the Bible is not the word of God, etc. It stuns me that people can think that this type of garbage is great theology.

If this type of theology is defended, then I am anguished about what’s in store for God’s people.


(Scott M Esh) #194

Ajshep,
I appreciate very much most of what you have to say, but as you can tell by how George writes, it appears that he thinks he is a theological genius, and we are just stupid losers.

A sad commentary, but there are those of us who do appreciate sincere dialog. I no longer share with people like this because they are close minded, and don’t listen to anyone with a different opinion. Perhaps you should just shake the dust off your shoes and move on. Most people are not listening here. They just attack those with opposing views.


(Johnny Carson) #195

And arguably a blessing.


(Johnny Carson) #196

Intervention? Hardly, and before you go off on the four winds tangeant and how things are getting more terrible all the time, just pause and realize if you think that to be true then you’re a very poor student of history.


(Johnny Carson) #197

Who’s dialoging? Seems more like a preaching service to me. :wink:

Wish I’d known you when I was a kid then, Good Sir! I could have used your sunny outlook instead of trembling in fear over the BS about hell and the unpardonable sin! :open_mouth::innocent:


(Allen Shepherd) #198

I’m glad you have finally realized my deep abiding desire to be only of assistance to all those that are touched, er I mean that I touch. And, yes, for free!! My only regret is that so many more fo… er, I mean clients, yes, that’s it, don’t take advantage…

I’m available at 1-800-Get Truth. Operators are on standby…


(Allen Shepherd) #199

I think Satan’s comments in Job 1 show that God is constantly guarding the righteous, though they may not know it.


(Harry Allen) #200

Thanks, @ajshep.

You said, in reference to this post:

In response:

That’s what I just said. And, if so, then what do I have “wrong”?

The entire illustration, in both halves, are about what we, in Adventist jargon, call “election.”

In the first instance, through Christ, we are affirmed, immediately. In the second, as with the IJ, we wait endlessly for our number to come up.

You said:

In response:

My illustration doesn’t address the question of what happens when a hired person chooses to leave the company.

See below:

The IJ “does,” in the sense that it’s an apparatus without biblical support or reason. One can come up with any solution for anything that is not actually an extant or real problem, and be absolutely right doing so. In Western culture, such solutions are called Rube Goldberg machines; for example, like this one for lighting a Christmas tree:

The investigative judgment is the Rube Goldberg machine of Christian doctrine. As I said in my essay:

For it to work, the I.J. requires that, on the basis of the scantest evidence, human beings confirm that on a given day, in a given month, in a given year, an action occurred, in an extra-universal realm, amidst divine beings; indeed, an action for which there is no possible detectable evidence, counter-action, or sign on Earth.

This is, again, unique, as a supposedly biblical schema. Indeed, the only evidence offered for this event is the reading of the supportive texts that, themselves, generate the hypothesis. This renders the argument, by definition, circular.

The Bible already addresses our election in 1 John 1:9, Hebrews 8:12, Romans 8:2, and many other places. Put another way, in Christianity, when you want to leave, you leave, as with any job. The difference, if any, is that, in Christianity, God continues to unobtrusively let you know that there are more job openings, and that he wants you to work for Him. People who think that, once joined with Christ, you can’t get away, need to read the Bible, especially the first three chapters and the last three.

The IJ is a Rube Goldbergian system for organizing baggage that doesn’t exist, and a way of saving 1844 as an indica of would-be SDA prophetic brilliance; as I said, perhaps akin to string theory, theologically, “a part of 21st-century physics that fell by chance into the 20th century.” Of course, string theory is a failed project, too.

HA


(Patrick Travis) #201

The excuse used by some back in the 60’s for the IJ lasting so long was, “just imagine how long it takes to investigate all those people and all those ‘cataloged’ actions.”
So, I guess now that God has a ‘new computer’ it can be in just a moment prior to Christ’s pre-millenial return.
Des was correct! :slight_smile:
2 readouts:

  1. whosoever believes in me shall not perish.

2)whosoever believes not perishes.