Did Desmond Ford Receive a Fair Trial?

(reliquum) #286

Pauluc, am familiar with the study you cite, and some of the medical science behind male hormones.

My somewhat humorous point to you was tongue in chique, and directed at your above quote.
Perhaps the alpha male behaviors in our president needs study. This might help explain the present animus against present president. Of course, based on our love for him, Jimmy Carter must necessarily be an outlier.

(Adventist Australia) #287

Those are physical signs only…what does it look like emotionally…your a bit late James…go back to the beginning and se that there is evidence for low testosterone from pastors down to church kids…

(jeremy) #288

but george, it’s not going to do you any good unless you learn something about the original greek…there really are problems with some of the translations that are out there…

(Adventist Australia) #289

Letters behind ones name does not make one wise. Some of the “brainiest” people in the world subscribe to some of the dumbest theories in the world…and yet some of the simplest people in the world can confound the most glittering academic…citing letters behind ones name isnt an argument…its an admission that you have nothing.

(Elmer Cupino) #290

In other words, if you had diabetes mellitus, you would have no concerns consulting with a mortician over a medical internist in regards to its management and treatment.

(George Tichy) #291

You see, you can’t let it go, can you?

Have you read and do you understand "original Greek?"
I took 4 semesters of Greek, plus 2 semesters of Exegesis. Not nearly enough to even start reading well much less to understand it doing exegesis. Why would one have to really learn the whole thing if there are experts who are literate in Greek and that already did the job of translating? Not one, but tens of them. Only because someone wants to “adjust” the Bible to what EGW said? Well, some people do this adjustment without any knowledge of Greek anyway. SO,… what was, again, your point Jeremy?

It seems that learning reading Hebrews in the original language may only be conducive to what the translations already say.

(George Tichy) #292

When there is an attitude of sarcasm and cynicism like that, the dialogue goes nowhere because the person is, obviously not serious enough for a mature conversation. Based on his attitude and picture, I always assumed he was probably in his early 20s. But, when I learned that he is already 51 (if I am not mistaken, from one of his posts) then I immediately knew that the dialogue would be just a waste of time. No time for that.

(Pauluc) #293

You are absolutely right and this is the whole basis for my previous statements about research and learning which is that it is mostly about learning the skills to recognize confirmation bias in oneself and others. To understand why we are so selective in our acquisition of information and to consciously fight against that. Naomi Oreskes great book “Merchants of Doubt” is a good place to start in understanding this phenomena.

I am not sure this is so valid. I find that people with knowledge and understanding can be completely astonished and rendered silent by a question that manifest such a depth of ignorance and oblivion to the magnitude of that ignorance. To receive a question so inane that one suddenly realizes the true depth of the ignorance and has to ask where do you even start to answer this question? Notable examples are Malcolm Roberts and Prof Brian Cox on climate change https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEGHW6Lbu8
and Richard Dawkins 11 second pause during an interview by an Australian interviewer https://www.skeptics.com.au/resources/articles/the-information-challenge/
I suspect that Glacier view may have been for Ford and the administrators in the same category. Give me a one page summary of 10 points everything else is too complex and hurts my brain.

(jeremy) #294

that’s what I’m getting at…there’s online interlinear that let’s you follow what is really being said…you can certainly see for yourself that the view that christ entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary at his ascension, as opposed to the heavenly sanctuary as a whole, isn’t warranted…it destroys the context…

(James Peterson) #295

Having read through your 25 posts on this topic and the links you provided, I believe this post above is the one that summarizes your point best: most church men cry openly like weak women.

What exactly though is typical of being a man, as opposed to being a woman? What are the emotional characteristics of masculinity? I’m really interested in your response. I can’t wait to self-diagnose.


(George Tichy) #296

In my opinion, it does not. When I read the book of Hebrews as a whole I get the sense of the context, which reassures me that what it says about Christ’s place and activity in the heavenly sanctuary right at the time of His ascension makes absolute sense.

I only got tho this understanding after I read the book over and over again, always the whole piece at once. Then, any “other activity” didn’t fit anymore, and I realized that Des was right!

Mayve reading the book over and over again is the key to understand it. It worked for me. It may work for anyone who can read it without preconceptions established by other sources. Or not…

(George Tichy) #297

The baloney classification of Άλφα, Βήτα, Γκάμα, Δέλτα, … Ωμέγα, etc kinds of men is nothing but an open door for the encouragement and development of an attitude of superiority (of males over females) that ultimate leads to an unwarranted behavior related to the male’s greedy, insatiable thirst for power & control.

It was in treating abusers and domestic violence perpetrators that I learned this. When a man starts bragging about his Άλφα status, the females better watch out and run. Fast! It may take years, but sooner or later those men will make their machismo surface, and even the females’ lives become endangered.

Another fact: when the abusive process starts, it does not stop by itself, and runs its dangerous course unless there is some kind of intervention (for ex., education, therapy, police call, divorce).

(Elmer Cupino) #298

This peacock “bragging” may be considered a normal defense mechanism during the surge of testosterone entering adolescence and early adulthood when the individual is expected to meet social and gender identity norms. But by 51 years old when the majority have settled into stable relationships and raising a family? The two major viable reasons to consider are as a compensatory mechanism to make up for the loss of masculinity or a defense mechanism for latent homosexual desires. Which one of this our respectable Pastor Danny @Danny is struggling with is still to be determined.


(jeremy) #299

it doesn’t make sense if you make the effort to see the parallels with the earthly sanctuary, which is one of the points paul is making…the holy place ministry wasn’t just skipped over…it went on for 359 days…only then did the high priest enter into the most holy place…the cycle was always 359 days of holy place ministry, followed by one day of most holy place ministry…

to say that christ, after his sacrifice on the cross, went immediately into the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary with the merits of that sacrifice destroys the point of understanding the earthly sanctuary…there’s no need to understand that there even was an earthly sanctuary in this case…it’s virtually saying that there’s no holy place in the heavenly sanctuary, much less any ministry for christ there…in the earthly sanctuary, the high priest ministered in both the holy place and the most holy place…why would this not be true of the heavenly sanctuary…

(Adventist Australia) #300

Straw man…must’v struck a nerve…here’s an entry level link on the whole issue…start there, then gt back to me when your intelligent on the subject.

“The current preoccupation with the role of women in the church obscures the more serious problem of the perennial absence of men. A Provocative new book argues that Western churches have become “women’s clubs,” that the emasculation of Christianity is dangerous for the church and society, and that a masculine presence can and must be restored. After documenting the highly feminized state of Western Christianity, Dr. Podles identifies the masculine traits that once characterized the Christian life but are now commonly considered incompatible with it” - extract.

(Pauluc) #301

I do not think that you and George can ever reach the denoument of the story of God’s salvation that was about the Cross since you literally believe that the sanctuary in heaven is a physical structure minimally different to the one on earth. George does not. Hebrews is about transcending the physical reality of the structures we can touch and see to a describe a reality which is beyond physical structure, something beyond our comprehension, a reality fitting of an infinite and eternal God who became incarnate and died. To anthropomorphize God himself and his dwelling place to our physical reality may be justifiable for a disappointed New England farmer in his cornfield negotiating his existential crisis but does it exhaust our understanding of God incarnate in Jesus. I think not.

(James Peterson) #302

Men have a natural need and understanding for conversion throughout their lives, while it is relatively unimportant in women’s lives. Unfortunately for the evangelical churches, once the men convert they find themselves in environments that are the very definition of effeminate. I think of the Promise Keepers, the evangelical “men’s movement”, which gets men together in football stadiums so they can hug each other and cry. Good Lord! Revivalism does convert a lot of men to evangelicalism, who are then driven away by the normal effeminacy.

Podles recommends that churches emphasize the masculine struggle and victory of Jesus. He says religion which speaks to men will use the language of warfare, of black and white contrasts, of those paradoxes (you must die in order to live) which men automatically grasp, of the transcendence of the self through self-sacrifice. Its worship will be serious rather than happy-clappy. He cites the need for some sort of initiation ritual for young men. If Christianity isn’t to become some sort of amiable ladies club, we have to rediscover the masculine heart of our Faith.

– From “Fighting the good fight for the hearts of men” by J. Michaelon June 7, 2009

How do I begin to answer this?

It seems that what Dr Poodles ought to really study is not the emotional disposition of men in the church, whether it is nearly feminine in nature or not, but rather the real ratio of sermons depicting triumphal heroism to those depicting the hugging of cute little babies.

He speaks in too broad terms about what is heard in churches for any meaningful debate; and then jumps to his own but startling conclusion.

I am a man. I have been a man all my life. I don’t know what it is like to be a woman at all, except what has been confided in me by women. I know, and am fully persuaded by Christ, that Christianity is not about stories of heroism or hugging cute little babies, but about doing what is right that peace, NOT war, spread throughout the earth, that we may enjoy a little bit of heaven before the new day dawns; and that that theme may be expressed in an infinite number of stories. Not all who hear will hear however. Some like the world, and some like it not. Let him who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.

In this life, there is money to be had in publishing half-baked ideas which stir up strident voices.

Here is something to think about: The Gender Gap in Religion Around the World

Considering the plight of women generally, James has an interesting explanation: “Listen, my beloved brothers: Has not God chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom He promised those who love Him?” – James 2:5 cf The Beatitudes of Mat. 5.

It explains why the wealthy, independent and proud North having grown so fat and rosy, the lean, fearful, hopeful, immigrant population has overtaken them in church membership.


(James Peterson) #303

The events surrounding Calvary speak eloquently about the Day of Atonement when the High Priest by sacrifice took away the sin in the midst of the House of God. In theological terms, His Sanctuary was cleansed.

For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Heb. 9:13-14

Therefore it is said that Christ entered into the MHP 1900+ years ago on our behalf; making the doctrine of an investigative judgement since 1844 a curious artifice.


(Adventist Australia) #304

Have you been in the church all your life?

(Adventist Australia) #305

“I did not come to bring peace but a sword” - Jesus.

I think you may have fallen into the common trap of post millenialism. The goal of the christian is not to have peace but to do the will of the Father. We are at war which is evident inside the church and out…and even here on this site with some of the attitudes displayed…the snarly vindictivism here is something many should be ashamed of.

You misinterpret Podles and I feel you are afraid of such data because it doesnt match your possibly secluded experience…the matrix of western feminism has blinded many. Modern christian men by and large in the west do not reflect the biblical characters of the past and as a result our young men are fleeing and those that remain have lower testosterone levels than those that leave.

Also male sda’s when asked which values characterises Christianity most of all choose female values…I have proved this over and over in all churches we too the liberating message to…without fail every time consistently.

“Let a young woman accept as a life companion only one who possesses pure, manly traits of character, one who is diligent, aspiring, and honest, one who loves and fears God”. {AH 47.3}