Did Desmond Ford Receive a Fair Trial?

(jeremy) #104

i was baptized in 1972 at andrew’s university’s pioneer memorial, and i don’t recall any “items” on my baptismal certificate…even with my re-baptism in 1994 at calgary central, i don’t recall any “items”…it probably depends on where you’re baptized…in neither case do i recall anything about doctrines…

(Adventist Australia) #105

Ah I assumed without looking at the wording…yes that analysis does seem odd knowing what is in fact the opposite…its boys and men who are absent…not women.

I re-read it and think this is a wrong conclusion by the authors based on the clientele they are asking. Where did they get the “former and inactive members” from? How do you get former members who are not on the books to participate in a study?

They state quite clearly…"there were more women than men among the inactive members INTERVIEWED??? Does this mean that they interviewed more women than men??? It doesnt make sense…what were the percentages of men vs women interviewed for the study?

If we look at Vogels data it shows the decline in membership is driven by adolescent males…not females. I dont get this data and feel there may be other drivers to come to that weird conclusion.

(Adventist Australia) #106

Let me propose another model…the harem model.

In Ottoman empires they typically housed several dozen women, including wives, daughters and other female relatives, as well as eunuchs. During later periods, the sons of Sultans also lived in the harem until they were 16 years old. Women of harems, especially wives played very important political roles in Ottoman history, and at times it was said that the empire was ruled from the harem. Young men permitted to remain but ejected at 16, while the only men allowed to stay are eunuchs…there are no alpha males in the Adventist hierarchy…only eunuchs.

If the pastor’s constituents are overwhelmingly female, then it’s natural that he will adopt a style that aligns with their needs. Women make up the majority of his workforce - why wouldn’t he? Keeping the ladies happy, especially the head matriarchs makes political sense. Like the Ottoman culture, the public sees the Sheiks ruling but they may be but carrying out the wishes of the lead women from deep inside the harem.

(Adventist Australia) #107

Its Gods order…he created it for a reason…maybe to see what not to be…maybe to show how to be?..I think we can take the analogy too far to discredit the natural order in humanity. Alpha males attract females…beta males dont by and large…

We could alternately say the hyena structure is equally disturbing to watch…maybe God is showing us extremes in nature and the balance is somewhere in the middle…like say a Lions pride?

(Adventist Australia) #108

There is no data on this but ask yourself a few observable questions. Who are the young men most likely to drop out of church? Who are the ones most likely to stay? What kind of boy stays in the church and what kind of boy leaves? I generalise yes but ask yourself another question…how do church men today compare to what we read about in the bible…the OT stories of men there?

Pastors out of all professions have the lowest levels of testosterone…did they develop low testosterone while being a pastor or was it part of their nature as young church men going into ministry? Remember testosterone levels can be affected strongly by your environment.

I think the church environment is hugely feminised…a matriarchy…run by beta males…giving the illusion of a patriarchy…but its not…its a harem…not an army…a hair salon. Solution is simple…bring back the patriarchal system…

(George Tichy) #109

Your certificate doesn’t have a list of beliefs printed on the back? So you don’t have to stick to anything… Just go now with the 27, I mean 28, and you will be fine… :wink:

(jeremy) #110

actually i didn’t check the back at the time…but in any case, neither of my baptisms had anything to do with doctrines that i recall…

(George Tichy) #111

WOW! I think we need the help of our 24/7 resident expert Dr @elmer_cupino to explain this tragic phenomenon.
By the way, this is a very serious,disturbing statement. Where did you get this info from again?

(Elmer Cupino) #112


Would you be kind to send me a link on how the comparative levels of testosterones were based on? What tests were performed and did these “pastors” undergo medical workup to rule out any medical conditions that would lower testosterone levels other than their “profession.” Also, please forward me a peer-reviewed article on how a profession could lower testosterone for my review as our Spectrum “prophet-in-residence” George @GeorgeTichy would like a second opinion, :wink: as if he really didn’t know already. Besides, posting this study at our SDA seminary centers would be informative.

I wonder whether levels of testosterone were also completed with pastors aligned with Amazing Fact, Secrets Unsealed and those of other independent ministries or are these just pastors at our GC headquarters in Silver Springs?

Glad to see you here in Spectrum.


(George Tichy) #113

Oh, for those ones I have the lab results: ZERO test found… LOL

(Elmer Cupino) #114

Perhaps levels above 600 ng/dl would be found with “pastors” aligned with Amazing Facts & Secrets Unsealed.

Peak levels of testosterone are about 20 years old. 1% decrease per year would be normally expected so those at the GC who are above 60 years old would have an expected testosterone level of 40-50 lower than if they were 20 years old. So @Danny could have some credibility with his assumption.

Oh well… I’m forever 20 years old, being born in 1950. LOL!!!

Danny, how old are you?

(Cfowler) #115

Maybe too much soy consumption…?

How do you know about the testosterone levels of pastors? Is there a study done on this?

So, I ask. What is the solution, in your opinion?

(George Tichy) #116

Yes, people born in 1950 are not affected by those changes.

(George Tichy) #117

Hire younger people for positions that need normal testosterone levels. :wink:

(reliquum) #118

I offer, not totally irreverently, that we need to ascribe to the biblical model for pastors.

We need them to be tent makers.

No monorchics, no eunuchs, no phyto-estrogen hormonally confused effeminate men, says so right there in leviticus. Their foods also must not be Big Franks, soy protein meat analogs. One wonders if rare red meat, oysters, and pomegranates will be required comestibles.

I can see it now-in effort to thwart the LowT epidemic (and maintain male headship), special sildenafil treated communion wafers will be given all ordained pastors. It is now also safe for our amazing naked neanderthal to finally be carried over the semenary [sic] threshold. Somebody send him a smoke signal please.

(please note non of the above is to be construed to be factual, true, or perhaps not even unfunny)

(Steve Mga) #119

George –
what ever happened to Cassandra???
I always enjoyed her posts. sometimes they were a little above my “pay grade”,
but I enjoyed being challenged by her.

(George Tichy) #120

Metamorphosis Steve, that’s what happened to Cassandra Pelerandra @CassandraPerelandra.
Pay attention to @Cassie now, and check for any similarities… LOL

(Steve Mga) #121

Danny –
It would be interesting to note someway if Males who leave the SDA church middle to late adolescence attach themselves to a Christian church at some point later.
A small sampling I have seen over the last 60 yrs with Alumni from an SDA boarding Academy,
a majority do not re-connect. But BECAUSE of the emotional feel of belonging to a “Family”,
most of the Alumni do return, even if for a 10 year reunion. And will be OK with participating
in the Friday nite, S.S. program, church. Sabbath Vespers.


Steve, I forgot my password to Cassandra Perelandra—I’m the same ol’ same ol’ with a shorter nickname. :slight_smile:

And I apologize for the confusion. I’ve explained it before, but it’s hard to read every single post in this site, I realize.

The posts with Cassie and Cassandra and Cassandra of Perelandra are all me—I’ve tried to go away and stay away a number of times, but…here I still am… :roll_eyes:

(jeremy) #123

any causative relationship between soy consumption and decreased testosterone is a myth…the facts are that soy consumption doesn’t affect testosterone levels one way or the other, but it does seem to lower PSA levels, which is still believed to be a generally good thing: