According to many black leaders (Tom Sowell, Walter Williams, Candace Owens MLK, ) this BLM movement is an embarrassment, Morgan Freeman dismissed the notion of black prejudice when asked what we should do about it His answer resonates with me “quit talking about it” Other blacks ask what should we do about black on black violence Should we just ignore it? It seems that blacks should be the ones who believe other black lives matter too. There are bigger issues to deal with . fatherless homes abortion, education. You can’t blame all the issues facing the black community on pigmentation. All the civil unrest we see fits with the Marxist program of destabilizing society by destroying the family unit , get rid of religion , use lethal force when necessary. According to many blacks, BLM is a Marxist inspired political organization funded by Geo Soros whose goal is to destroy America As I see it the problem is cultural not racial. I’m not the only one who thinks so.
So do many others like Danzel Washington There are more than two races living side by side in the USA, at least the last time I looked. Then there is a growing number of inter-racial marriages that don’t fit into any ethnic group. Obama is the perfect example. I could never see him as black despite his color. He could just as easily be “white” I think he chose his “color” for political purposes. So what is my point? Stop and think carefully about your “cause” Maybe most people aren’t interested how you “feel” Today I’m sad Tomorrow .I choose happiness because it "feels " better.
Dave Okamura
Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the exchange and your openness.
Being born into a family without two parents as the “core issue” for the status of Blacks to me sounds like blaming the victim. I don’t mean you personally and please I don’t call you a racist. I am discussing. I am sorry that I don’t know how to properly address this without risking to make you feel uncomfortable (I wish I was smarter): This “parents reason” fits well into the racist narrative of non-Blacks telling Blacks how to live and behave accordingly, because they are seen as less capable of knowing for themselves. Again, I know you don’t want to push this category of thinking. Furthermore, there are other countries with racism, and we don’t have this “parents issue.” And still, racism and the oppression of Black people. It’s a global phenomenon which cannot be mainly attributed to local causes.
Racism is more than discrimination. Changes I think are needed (not a full list, unorganized thoughts):
- Listen to Black people that tell about their experiences.
- Not judging their experiences. They don’t need non-Black people to educate them about “real” reality.
- An awareness of racist thinking (= dehumanizing thinking), especially because racism is very subtle. An awareness of racist thinking has to become part of society’s DNA on all levels (racist narratives and how to deal with them …).
- Creative anti-racist ways in everyone’s daily life (support for Blacks when they are terrorized, speaking up against racist talks, asking why security follows black people in shops …).
- An awareness of the value of black people and other non-white people. More non-whites in media, tv, movies, in non-stereotype roles and also in interracial relationships. This can be initiated by a wave of people’s request.
- Investigation, monitoring, and research, especially of police, military, judges, state levels (racist persons, racist structures, racist motives, reasons for development, prevention …).
- Consistent application of the law on racist crimes. No excuses. No exceptions.
- Investigation, monitoring, and research of non-state entities with authority levels like churches by their members. This can be initiated by a wave of protests from the membership.
- Research of the history of racism in different countries (persons, institutions, developments …) + creating an awareness that history doesn’t repeat itself and that the present frees itself from the past. There can be creative ways to raise this awareness like a national public holiday to commemorate the history of non-white people in one’s country, with local different offers like street festivals, art, movies etc.
- Diversity actions (empowering Black people with offices, authority …). This means white people have to share their power.
- Laws. Against racial profiling and other racist deeds.
- This is perhaps hard to grasp for many: capitalism needs boundaries. Or there can be creative ways of anti-capitalism which have to be democratic. Without boundaries the strongest will survive. And they are usually those with power.
Good questions, excellent post. The problem with with suggesting any restraints on or any questioning of capitalism is always met with accusations of “Marxism”. Screaming out “Marxism” seems to be a very effective “dog whistle” scare tactic beneficiaries of the current economic system use to create fear in the hearts and minds of the masses - the consumers.
I think Capitalism CAN work for everyone, but I don’t see it working in the example we have before us today. It doesn’t surprise me that those who receive its greatest benefits are its biggest defenders. Any attempt to manage it or create any boundaries (however small) are almost violently opposed and labeled “Marxism”.
Look how even the protests are labeled Marxist. I smell fear all over this.
Great.
Why?
It may, or it may not.
It depends on the quality of the argument that you present, as well as how you share it.
(@Timo, @elmer_cupino, and @tekcajwolley clicked the LIKE heart for the following post. So, they may appreciate this interchange.)
Above, in post #29, you bring up the argument of what you call “real vs perceived racism.” You call it “the heart of [the] issue.”
In your statement, you deem police brutality “real” racism. OK. There are a lot of people, mostly white, who’d disagree with you, but we’ll walk past them for the time being.
However, subsequently, you call the fact that, statistically, 72% of Black babies are born to unmarried parents “perceived racism.”
You say:
However, nowhere to you state why these outcomes are not racist. You just say that they aren’t.
This is a very low level of argumentation. However, it follows the rhetorical curvature a lot of white dismissals do: Calling out some social problem as evidence of Black culpability, but not saying why it is so.
A prime example of this, for example, is the frequent resort to raising so-called “black-on-black crime” as an objection to Black urgency against police brutality. The idea is, if Black people were really against Black people dying from violence, they would do something about “black-on-back crime.”
Of course, this argument is absurd. One could just as well say that we shouldn’t be upset about white teen suicide, because white people kill themselves by the thousands in automobile accidents every year.
I’m not calling you “white,” above, by the way. (I don’t know if you are, or if you aren’t.) I’m simply attempting to show why what you say will, in your own words, “add to the individuals perception that I believe he/she doesn’t matter.” It will do so because it does not take Black observations of their own reality into account.
When you chose to respect your co-worker’s belief in the afterlife by not giving her a lesson on SDA Fundamental Belief #26, you were taking her observations of her own reality into account.
When you say that “perceived”—one might say imaginary—racism creates the conditions that lead to high numbers of Black out-of-wedlock births, not only does it make you sound insensitive, but it makes you sound uncurious, and even ignorant.
Put another way, how do you know this to be true; that Black out-of-wedlock births are high for reasons that have nothing to do with racism?
If so, what are the reasons Black out-of-wedlock rates are so high, then; all of them? And, following that, what is your evidence that none of these reasons are affected by white supremacy?
You’ve not presented any of your logic. You’ve just used the word “perceived,” like an amulet. You could say the same thing about your co-worker’s visions of her mom, hovering in glory. Why don’t you?
I have two suggestions for you, and others like you:
a) If you want to be seen as more than a racial speed bump, you need to, first, be kind, then maybe mute. This would be in line with the old adage that, “If you can’t say something nice, then don’t say anything at all.”
One can support Black Lives Matter protests with water—just like people do runners at the L.A. Marathon—even if one thinks racism is completely fictional. The need for water is not.
b) You also need to become more sophisticated on racial matters. The lack of knowledge that white people possess, then express, on racism is stunning to Black people. I experienced this dissonance, recently, for example, in certain exchanges, here, with @GeorgeTichy.
Actually, though, this is not to be unexpected, because, unlike white people, Black people are having a first-person, subjective experience with racism as victims of it.
A year ago, The New York Times published the Pulitzer Prize-winning The 1619 Project. It multi-dimensionally illuminates the story of African-Americans, in the time since they were brought to this continent.
Last month, The Washington Post also created a massive document of links, chronicling the racial experience of African-Americans.
I’ve already suggested a book that you should read. 
I’m going to guess that, because of your arguments in this post, you’ve not done so.
You may want to consider resources like these—or these by @Kate!—if you are going to have meaningful conversations with Black people about racism, and be believable.
HA
Wow. Just wow.
I sense the analogy of an arsonist fireman is apropos here, but I’ll be the first to be moot, since i can’t help being so dumb and white.
Black people were dragged from their homes in Africa and brought to America where they were abused socially, emotionally, physically and economically for hundreds of years while living with their abusers. Then, without any therapy and little to no financial support, they were given their freedom on paper and told to go make a life for themselves and their children. As they were attempting to do so, laws were put in place to keep them down in all aspects of life or to and prevent them from succeeding and from being treated with dignity and equality. An attempt was made on paper with the passing of civil rights laws less than 80 years for them to be treated as human beings. However, this has by no means resulted in the change of attitudes of millions if not most, of the oppressors and their children.
Someone on this forum have the audacity to make this comment “It seems that blacks should be the ones who believe other black lives matter too. There are bigger issues to deal with. fatherless homes abortion, education. You can’t blame all the issues facing the black community on pigmentation.” I wonder if this person had daugthers who were repeatedly raped and provided little or no therapy and support were told to go and make the best of life for themselves, would conclude that your daughters’ promiscuity, lack of ability to form permanent relationships, anger, and other behaviors associated with rape victims had nothing to do with their history.
As a person not born in this country, my impression of the ongoing comments about race on this forum has led me to conclude that too many, if not most, non black Americans are
-ignorant or in denial of the history of blacks
- lack sensitivity to the pain of the black community;
- are more concerned about semantics than the pain of black people,
- want to tell blacks, the victims, how to feel about the pain that has been inflicted on them for hundreds of years;
- are more concerned about the few who are violent protesters than the thousands who are protesting peacefully (as if the violence by few should be reason to ignore the cry and pain of an entire community and ignoring the fact that in most movements for positive changes there have always been counter movements to discredit the ones for positive changes, eg the Protestant Reformation);
- offer condemnation as opposed to compassion; and
- ignoring what Jesus did and would’ve done for people who were marginalized and oppressed (While on earth He offered hope not condemnation).
After reading the article by Ms Ray, I was expecting most of the responses to reflect empathy, sensitivity, sympathy, hopefulness for change, and understanding. Unfortunately, this was not the case. If we can’t get people on a forum who profess to be followers of Christ to show that they care about the pain of the oppressed then what expectation should I have of non Christians?
Oh Beverly-
this very statement disregards the historical fact that racism sprang from black on black tribalism, and bruhs sold bruhs into servitude-and not until the world solidified its fight against the older (1500’s) Barbary coast history (the white slaves here are never mentioned, nor the later Irish, and other nationalites)
It is unfortunate that the black on black crime of original African slavery and the black on white slavery is always dismissed-despite it was flourishing long before the Mayflower was a twinkle in Captain Jones eye.
Rewriting history assures we will repeat it.
The mobius strip of discrimination goes back to the chief and original sin-
Adam the Greater blaming Eve the lesser-and Godhimself, for making an inferior being like HER. Women are STILL, unfortunately, enslaved on any number of levels, worldwide.
White on black discrimination is the new kid on the block.
Please help me understand that you are NOT saying, that because evil has always existed, exists now, we can’t do anything about it, therefore we should quit whining about it.
Thats what it sounds like to my simple mind.
I think prejudice and racism (whatever color you choose) exists because fear of the “other” exists.
Maybe the first thing we ALL should do is get on our knees and ask Jesus, “Lord, is it I”?
Not at all. But to repeat what has been done before “to do something about it”
starts with blame assignation on the chosen “other” we’re actually completely failing to do something about it.
It is waht it is-it’s here, question remains what are we doing in our own sphere, in our daily grind, to change it.
Identity politics was spawned in the garden, in the shadow of the apple tree-
and ever since man has been
husband against wife
brother against brother
native against stranger
owner vs vagrant
arab vs jew
color vs color
etc ad nauseum
when in fact even “race” is a construct.
We are one race, with One Father.
However, like orphans, we are merely fighting to be at the seat closest to daddy, and using tactics that begin with attacking our fellow kin, err, orphans
Wow. Just wow.
As @bvj_01’s eloquent post suggests, @Timo, you should not have stopped reading at the word mute.
The last part of my post says, “You also need to become more sophisticated on racial matters.” It never fails that what you, particularly, write often becomes the very example of that to which I, now we, vehemently object.
Since you are still trying the hoary trick of being an apologist for the transatlantic slave trade—by saying that, on the African continent, conquered peoples were sold to Europeans by their captors—I’d challenge you to find just one ship, stuffed to the gills with captive Fon, that was piloted and docked by a Beninese sailor, under their flag, in the so-called New World; you know: the people you dismissively and racistly demean as “bruhs.”
Here’s a hint: You cannot.
This should tell you something about the nature of the European slave trade that is significant, but that may have whizzed past you: The awesome infrastructural machine that 15th and 16th century white people created, in order to dehumanize Africans, was a wholly different apparatus from the cultural practices of native, warring groups.
The white slave machine was, to use a biological term, a kleptoparasite, like cuckoo bees are, or the great skua is. To quote Wikipedia:
Kleptoparasitism [a] (etymologically, parasitism by theft) is a form of feeding in which one animal takes prey or other food that was caught, collected, or otherwise prepared by another animal, including stored food.
So, while you may think you have sagely captured Beverly Joseph’s first sentence and refuted it, with your patronizing, “Oh, Beverly…”
… the Yoruba did not do anything she describes.
The White Supremacists did.
HA
Ditto!!! It is obvious that there are still too many people insensitive to very sensitive issues. Let alone those who keep throwing gasoline in the fire.
One race, with One father.
If you are against me, you are against Him.
If you are against me based on skin color,
you are against yourself.
How was that, “love your brother as yourself?”
So that then I know you love Me?
Naw, we’ve all failed-
but claiming someone else failed worse than you didn’t work for Adam, either.
Carry on. Hate on a color that makes green, makes me red.
This is the link to the article and within the article there is a link to the cdc raw data and tables…if you have the stomach for 75 pages of data tables lol
Thank you, appreciated.
I learned a long time ago from a very wise man to step aside
if someone too vehemently projects his strain against me personally.
And to read between the lines.
Please don’t fall over when I do.
I’ll leave your “WE” comment alone.
Had a professor once who would ask
“are speaking for the mouse in your pocket?”
Never forgot that.
Be well, Harry-I appreciate you -
–perhaps more than you dare acknowledge.
Beverly, women have been oppressed for thousands of years-in an ongoing manner on virtually every level. Oppression on something as superficial as pigment, as compared, to say, gender, is, well, how can I say this without being oppressive, pales in comparison.
I think you may misunderstand some of us who push back at the present codependent societal headrush to -what, some undefined, nebulous retribution/reparation/ even vengeance?
Accepting-and making excuses for misbehavior in the “protests” (even blaming the paler society of being the reason for black on black crime, fatherlessness, crime, etc etc) is the cloy icing.
It’s enough to make an empath clam up
Was that wise man talking about others doing that…over something that you’d written?
If he was as wise as you suggest, I doubt it.
???
Of course, you will.
Did your professor have friends, or colleagues?
I would never speak about your thoughts.
HA
Rrrrrrrrrrriiiiight.
I was more moved when Queen said it:
Also: Humans are not a “race.” We are a species. There are no “races of birds,” or “bird race,” for example.
In Exodus 14, the Israelites, led by Moses, are camping at Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon, when, suddenly, they look behind them and see the armies of Egypt in hot pursuit.
Ramses, who’d let them go, had changed his mind, and was coming back to claim his property.
The Jews are terrified, and begin to complain to Moses. So, in verses 13-14, Moses gets up and makes a speech:
Moses answered the people, “Do not be afraid. Stand firm and you will see the deliverance the Lord will bring you today. The Egyptians you see today you will never see again. The Lord will fight for you; you need only to be still.”
Good words. So, how does the Lord respond?
He says, "Why are you crying out to me?"
It’s a unique, and powerful, critique. In other words, at the moment Moses should be acting, he’s speechifying.
Or as Syndrome, from 2004’s The Incredibles would put it, “monologuing.” 
Said another way, there are definitively times to pray, and there are definitively times to act.
White people love to call on God after they’ve grotesquely cornered themselves, or otherwise said or done something massively transgressive. Hence the frequent thought experiment: “Could God forgive Hitler?”
Now, the caveat is that, in the Bible, God invites us to do this, over and over. However, he does this so that we may remove our sin before Him, not to delete the transgressional debt between us and others.
You may be sinless before God, but still have to return what you’ve stolen, four-fold.
Your wack poetry, @Timo, does not eliminate the need for a sensible grappling with the sin of racism, or the owed debt for it. You’ve performed neither, here.
Mentioning God’s name, like Moses, at convenient moments, doesn’t cut it, either.
God himself says, in Isaiah 1:12-15:
When you come to appear before me,
who has asked this of you,
this trampling of my courts?
Stop bringing meaningless offerings!
Your incense is detestable to me.
New Moons, Sabbaths and convocations—
I cannot bear your worthless assemblies.
Your New Moon feasts and your appointed festivals
I hate with all my being.
They have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.
Your hands are full of blood!
Then, in verse 17, He issues this quadratic command:
Seek justice.
Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless.
Plead the case of the widow.
God doesn’t mock the 72% of Black babies without fathers, that @Yoyito brought up. He commands that we take up their cause.
Aside from Christ’s separation of the sheep and the goats in Matthew 25, there may be no more direct edict affirming that Black lives matter.
HA
@elmer_cupino
Elmer,
I believe that those of us who dedicated our lives to help people manage their mental, emotional, and behavioral issues have an approach that is basically neutral regarding to culture, color of skin, religious beliefs, gender, etc.
Do you think that God, because He is perfect, actually has a perfectly neutral attitude/approach to this issue, that he deals with individuals without even considering those differences that imperfect humans keep holding on to?
WDYT?
If you believe that a statement as “all lives matter” is dismissive, would you say that it is a false statement or a true statement?
Is the blm statement true or false?
If they are both true, how does one dismiss the other? If one dismisses the other then one could say that it is more true than the other and the weaker statement loses its desired value and outcome. When the statement addresses the value of certain humans but not all humans one could deduce that it favors said group over another. This is what leads to tribalism, favoritism of individuals and ethnic groups. This one reason many humans left homeland countries, so they had freedom and eventually the U.S. Constitution was developed.