Proving the exact cause is not easy, but I stated the reasons why it’s likely not caused by racism. 1. Most can agree there’s less systemic racism now than in the 40’s and 50’s, yet the rate was lower then. 2. I could ask you the same question…what proof do you have that the rate went up because of racism? The major flaw I see with the current fight against “systemic racism” is that no one can point to the cause, or define what the solution is. Let’s look at welfare. Giving money to poor black and brown people can be seen as a pro-minority policy. A policy to undue the effects of racism. But then as the policy doesn’t really help, and even hurts poor poeple…the argument is made that the policy is actually racist. So either way “systemic racism” is blamed. Systemic racism will never end because no one really know what the root or solution truly is.
I would not go to a blm March and say it. But I also do not expect to be knocked out for speaking my mind…as none of us should.
I can see that most poeple in US aren’t Hispanic. If I were in China I’d notice I’m a minority. Same if I were in Nigeria. It’s pretty obvious. No one had to tell me. And from recent events I can say that I have never heard so many black and brown people who speak as if they see every issue, every single issue thru the lense of race. As if personal decisionS have nothing to do with what becomes of us. I stated before that when there are 2 parents in the home, the black poverty rate 8% is actually lower than white poverty rate 11%. Black non-wed poverty rate for backs is 23%. That is strong empirical evidence that decisions play more of a role than racism.
This is perhaps the biggest objection I have to the white supremacy argument. It leads people to put all the power in the hands of someone else (at least in their minds). If our youth believe this, it will rob them of the hope that they Have the power to improve their condition. If they believe they can be “overruled“ by white people, they will not succeed for they are defeated before they ever try.
One reason this doesn’t fade as often is that unlike the tooth fairy, (Which all agree is a myth) as black people grown up those that try to say that Police brutality isn’t as bad as presented are opposed by their own race. They are called sell-outs and many other names I’m sure we all know but I will not use here. I’ve been on the receiving end of many of those insults from other Hispanics. Breaking free is not easy. Not because the data doesn’t support that fact that it is greatly exaggerated, but because our own people shame and insult us into not speaking up.
From your posts I know you are an educated and intelligent person. So I know you know that using a specific incident may be tempting but it’s not a fair way to prove an argument. Having two parents probably won’t affect this particular case. But that’s like saying a look at this vegan athlete that died of a heart attack at 25 and tell me how eating healthy is good for you. The data in the aggregate is irrefutable. Children of Two parent families have higher incomes, less suicide, less jail, Better grades, finish college more etc and that is true for all races, including black people. It’s documented, verifiable, proven by many studies. Are there single parent kids that grow up to be rich, sure…but as a whole there is not doubt, this one factor Is hugely impactful to success for all races, especially African Americans. Also, I could use a success story of how a white person helped a black person to succeed, does that one story disprove racism? I can think of a few white people that did this for me that I could tell. This has been your least effective argument.
I get this, it makes sense, but as mentioned before, many don’t listen to and actually attack viciously the African Americans that try and say the same thing. So if they won’t listen to me…they dont listen to black people either. They insult and belittle black people who say what I say. I know because it’s the same among Hispanics. No matter how respectful or tactful you might express your ideas, you are, in the end, a token sell-out for the white man. I see my position as actually taking power for me and mine, I see you opinion as giving power to someone else. As a result I believe it will be a self fulfilled prophecy.
I’m sure we’ll cross paths on some other article. But as this one is ending soon…it’s been a pleasure and be blessed!!
Allen, to mention these two points in a thread about racism is more than just insensitive. Context. Don’t you see it?
However, there should always be a way to continue the conversation. Especially of Christians. edit: It would help if you consider what effect your words can have on the other person you are conversing with, consider their biography and background, and the context of the whole topic and its historical development. Not telling you what to do, only suggesting a way out of the mess right now.
That wasn’t my intent, but there were places in my response that I felt would benefit from illustration.
I think that, generally, white people view Black people through stereotypes, and that the core, or dominant, stereotype is crime; i.e., criminality.
One can’t have a race system without “two realities.”
You might say “two realities” is the very definition of racism.
What I’d say is:
a) What should one study in a blog forum about racism?
b) My goal is developing a system of counter-racist logic; one that can be used to eliminate white supremacy.
In fact, it’s a very real encounter with people. I doubt that there’s anything more real than asking the questions:
“How do I survive?”
and
“Will you help my chances, or hurt them?”
Indeed, I’d urge that what many white and/or non-white people call “a real encounter with people”—i.e., “getting to know each other”; “learning about other cultures”; “friendship”—is, in fact, none of these, because none of them ever contain a plan for eliminating racism.
In other words, from a certain perspective, what they are are systems of thought, speech, and action for keeping white supremacy dominant.
That which most ails non-white people—racism—they will be expected to continue bearing. Meanwhile, white people will have “a real encounter with people.”
As for the idea that
orthogonally, you might say that.
But any smart young woman, out on a first, third, or ninth date is doing the same thing. So is such a woman, celebrating her 28th anniversary.
Yes.
However, there’s a concept I frequently apply, called The Maximum Maxim.
It says: “Anything that one can say about a victim of racism is better, more accurately said about the race system (white supremacy). itself.”
So, if it is sad, it’s not as sad as racism, itself.
Objectively? What would be the objective standard for whether or not a white person is racist?
I’ve never had anyone tell me how to be sure.
Thanks.
The best way any white person would prove they are not a racist would be to eliminate the system of white supremacy and replace it with justice.
Anything else can be faked, including “white anti-racist activism.”
I think I previously misunderstood your point about why you interact here. It’s not only to show the amount of see-able racism that shows up, as I previously thought, but also an argumentative tool (“counter-racist logic”). Action and reaction, and this is what I would describe as a “real encounter with people.” This is what I meant.
Well, a single person cannot do that because it’s a whole system. Based on your premise, there is actually no way for a white person to prove at the moment they are not racist. On the other hand, there are things one person can do to establish justice in their area of influence. Wouldn’t that be a prove?
Why would prejudiced people take the biblical talk about light and darkness too literal? Because it fits their narrative.There we have a circle to what you said earlier: One racist narrative about Blacks is Black = Criminal.
That’s not correct: You’ve not defined “systemic racism.” Nor have you shown how one would demonstrate that there is less of it, today.
You could, but the problem is that this question is not an argument.
a) I don’t use the term “systemic racism.” Indeed, I urge that “systemic racism” is a superfluity, because all racism is white supremacy, and white supremacy is a system.
Saying “systemic racism” is like saying “wet water.”
Saying “systemic racism” is like saying “white racism.”
b) Your reply is still non-responsive.
Even if one doesn’t know a) what the root of racism is, or b) how to eliminate it, this doesn’t mean it’s not having an effect, including a sizable.
By this argument, we might conclude, as well, that, on Earth, water is not having an effect.
By this argument, we might conclude, as well, that the universe is not having an effect.
It seems that what you are saying is this: If one assumes what you’re saying is true, for these reasons, one must either discount racism, or ignore it. This is not responsive, either.
None of us should, but those of us who don’t expect it are usually the most surprised when it happens.
I didn’t ask you, “Who had to tell you?” I asked you, “Who told you?” These are two different questions.
If you’re going to say, “I somehow ended up concurrently using the dominant nomenclature for racially diminished people—“minority”—on my own, just out of the blue,” you will not sound credible.
Further, you didn’t answer this question: What is “a minority”? That was the first query.
Then, you didn’t answer these questions, re: you being a minority:
Why was it important for the people who told you you were “a minority” to
1) Determine that you were a minority, and
2) To let you know that you were one?
So:
a) Name an issue that cannot be viewed “thru the lense of race.”
b) Name an issue that should not be viewed “thru the lense of race,” and say why.
c) Name a “personal decision” that cannot be dominated by race.
Q: What does the poverty rate have to become for them to no longer be considered “Black”?
That’s not a counter-argument. What Malcolm X would say at moments like this is appropriate: “You may not like me saying it, but you can’t deny it!”
The people who are calling them those names are the ones falsifying your conclusion.
I’m not trying to prove an argument: I’m trying to falsify yours.
Falsified.
No: It’s like you saying, “With a vegan diet, you’ll live to 100,” over the corpse of a dead, 25-year-old vegan.
I think you are losing track of the argument.
The question is this: In any way, is racism a cause for high, Black, out-of-wedlock birthrates? That’s the question.
However, instead of answering it, you’re talking about how good it is to have two parents in the home when a baby is born.
Few of the Black women giving birth without a husband would disagree with you. Neither would I. But this does not answer the question, and your attempts to answer it seem incoherent.
It does, but only if my argument is that, under racism, white people never help Black people succeed.
That’s not my argument. My argument is that racism is white supremacy, and that white supremacy is racism’s sole, functional form.
My argument is that, under racism, not enough non-racist white people overrule the racist ones.
Please let me know if you have a logical counter-position.
See above.
You’re talking about the effects of this reaction. But I’m asking about the reasons for it.
The reason the SR-71 pilot gets angry is because of what you’re proposing.
You’re proposing that the best way to fly an 2,200 mph jet is by using a six-year-old girl’s vision board. What you are proposing goes against the lived experience of supersonic jet pilots.
The same is true for non-white people: What you propose goes against their lived experience. (I don’t parse “Black vs. Hispanic,” as you do: A large number of Hispanic people are Black, even if they’re not African-American.)
For me, Harry Allen, to agree with you, I’d have to make sense of what you’re saying. But for me to make sense of what you’re saying, I’d have to pretend a lot things I’ve seen and experienced never happened.
That’s a high bar-to-entry for me, and for most Black people. That’s the case, much as it’s a high bar-to-entry, for most white people in this forum, to believe that the only form of racism is white supremacy.
The difference, however, is you are trying to persuade your audience. I’m not trying to persuade white people.
I’m here because Spectrum is a place where one can write about racism in the context of SDA thinking and practice.
They offer many opportunities to do so—via their editorials and the comments that follow—and their objective is the free interchange of ideas; “Community Through Conversation.” Plus, the populace is varied in their backgrounds and thinking.
That’s not the case at other SDA sites. Either the tech and design is wonky (AToday) OR there is no community, the comments are heavily censored, and, at forefront, the site is a promotional tool for SDA beliefs and goals (Advent Review).
So, I interact here—writing about race—because there are smart, thoughtful people, and I want to see if my ideas are worth anything.
My thinking is that, on a topic, I will put my best idea forward, someone else will do likewise, then a third, or a fourth, and, when all is done, the idea left standing—with the fewest defeated conclusions—wins.
To my thinking, if you do enough of this, like panning for gold, what you have left is a coherent worldview, or at least the beginning of one.
I know that, to the degree that many people here are white, many people here are going to disagree with a number of my conclusions; e.g., that racism is white supremacy, and that is its sole, functional form.
However, I want their disagreement, so that I can build the best possible version of the idea.
A test pilot gets in a new experimental plane, and tries to break it.
That’s what I try to do here, in Spectrum: Break my ideas.
Nothing about ending racism, to me, demands that only one person do it. A sufficiently committed white person could bring in her friends, her choir, her sorority, or her graduating class and make a party out of it.
I’m open to suggestions.
One could be a racist, committed to white supremacy, and do the same thing as a decoy.
How would I know the difference?
You may be right about the reason. However, I don’t accept it as a legitimate cause.
As you seem to say, I think the goal is white supremacy, and then the scriptural logic followed, not the reverse.
Truth be told, the term “white supremacy” is a hoax. It is a conspiracy theory used to divide the country and keep a hold on power. There is one USA government party that pushes this conspiracy and they use it to divide, to stir up racism, and to confuse our citizens. We all know that our U.S. Constitution allows for all citizens to have freedom because we all matter. I like to focus on people as persons, as Gods creation, not their skin color.
Yes, but to emphasize the historical development results in failing to take advantage of the present. The past happened. But there are great opportunities in the present, ignoring the past. And focusing at the 1% and crying “Racist!” really does not help the nation nor the individual.
I have read your posts, Yoyito’s and write mine. We all have used different approaches to make this point about racism: it is not universal, and you cripple yourself thinking so. And our nation is destroying itself with that idea.
HA views the world through an amazingly distorted lens. The blunt instrument of my arguments are meant to address that distortion. They have been ineffective. But your gentle ones has not been effective either. Nor Yoyito’s
Perhaps best to leave it at that.
But thank you for your kind admonition.
I am adding an edit.
I have taught several black students in grade school and high school at our little church school. (not many, maybe a dozen or so). I never speak of racism or any limitations the society may put in front of them. I treat them like the other students in every way. I concentrate on their ability (some have been brilliant), and encourage hard work and the development of good study habits etc. I tell them they can do it.
And they do. Perhaps they will face these issues in the future, but with a positive attitude, I think they will have a better chance with life.
Spectrum is a great place for conversation. Indeed.
About “breaking your ideas”: I’m not sure if there is a regular participant here (article writers excluded) as deeply rooted, reflected and educated in all these issues as you. There’s a kind of imbalance.
About racists: Ultimately, only God knows the heart and motives of anti-racist people (and all else). No one else ever really knows a person objectively. For me personally, there has to be trust at some point that the person is what they say they are and do. I couldn’t live with suspicion all day. But again, I don’t have your background and don’t know what it is like to be black. I don’t live in your reality.
LOL! I don’t suggest that Christ looks like Jared Leto. What makes you think so? My point was that people always read their situation and context into the Bible. There are biblical metaphors about light as the realm of day with wisdom, spiritual good and transparency vs. darkness as the realm of night with folly, hiding and unspiritual things. It’s a spiritual category and doesn’t say anything about skin color, especially when one considers that almost all people mentioned in the Bible were non-white. Racist narrative today (not the biblical one!) may connect the darkness amongst others with crime and crime with Blacks.
Btw, in ancient times, the Sumerians called themselves proudly “black headed people.” Reality or better realities changed over time.
The topic will close soon. Thank you for the complex conversation and your media material. I hope to have more calm conversations in the future. May The Golden Rule be our good guide for the way of how discussions take place. Blessings.
Thank you, Allen, that you took my post like you did. You could have reacted differently.
I am just surprised about:
I don’t know when I indicated that racism isn’t a global phenomenon. Racism is here in Europe, too. Look at other places like Australia. It’s more than just a US phenomenon.
But you want to leave it at that. I respect that. Be well.
Thanks for pointing this out to @ajshep. In the context of this topic, this should be helpful to him. He does not need to "stop writing," he just would do better if he could write more more sensitively - especially on this sensitive subject.
JMO.
This statement really called my attention, and I am astonished. The evidence is too overwhelming to be a hoax. I know white supremacy is a social anomaly and an ill state of mind that, out of shame, makes many white people to basically deny its existence. But this belief/reaction does not eliminate the culprit.
I am white but I am one of those who denounce that other whites behave so psycho-socially/pathologically. But I will not deny the reality of the fact, because I am not part of it - so I don’t have to be ashamed of anything. Shame of those who are part of any kind of racial supremacy, no matter what color it may be.
JMO
@Harry_Allen Harry, in your response to @Yoyito you seemed to conflate “brown” and “black”, i.e., you said you don’t parse Hispanics vs Blacks because many Hispanics are Black. Do you also conflate “yellow” and “white” in order to sustain your view that racism is white supremacy?
If you do conflate “yellow” and “white”, how do you account for the history of American White prejudice and discrimination against American Chinese and other Asians (such as Japanese)? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Chinese_sentiment_in_the_United_States). If you don’t conflate the two, then how can you insist that “the only form of racism is white supremacy”? (i.e., how do you know it isn’t sometimes “yellow supremacy”?)
Along the same lines, is anti-Jewish racism also “white supremacy”? Why?
Are other ethnic conflicts (including tribalism) and discrimination not racism if they don’t involve Whites?
Not trying to pick a fight…just trying to understand why you seem to view all racism through a white supremacy lens when the evidence seems (to me) to point a different direction. Thanks. (And sorry to jump in so late in this thread, perhaps not giving you time to respond before they close the thread; feel free to contact me directly).
@elmer_cupino, @GeorgeTichy
I think Harry Allen had some fun with you gentlemen. That is his real name. He is well-known, nay, famous, in the hip hop community. Google “Harry Allen hip-hop” for background, including a Wikipedia article that says in part, “Harry Allen is an American hip hop activist and journalist affiliated with the group Public Enemy, and is the director of the Rhythm Cultural Institute.” His photo clips/comments in response to Elmer Cupino were a teasing answer that you may have missed the significance of.
White America has no problem condemning the holocaust; but, as a nation, it has never acknowledged the horrors of slavery and come to terms regarding the impact slavery must have had on Blacks and their descendants. Instead, currently, many Whites want to use the progress that the black community has made as a means of silencing them on the mistreatment they contiune to experience.
I believe that past generations of White Americans never stopped to think that their children would have to deal with and would be impacted by the negative outcomes or consequences of their treatments of Blacks. Did they think that the community of people they abused for hundreds of years would have no scars that would eventually have serious impact on the nation as a whole? I don’t think that they did. Currently, those Whites who practice racism are making the same mistake. The pain and suffering millions of people experience because of racism can only be ignored for so long before their is an outcry, which most likely will be uncomfortably for the perpetrators of racism.
Another topic that I would like to address is how immigrants tend to view Black Americans. Immigrants who have done well are likely to use their accomplishments as evidence that the conditions of Black Americans must be a result of their own inherent deficits. Their conclusion is, “If I can do it, they should be able to do it too. There must be something wrong with them.” I would suggest that those immigrants who are of this opinion, read upon the reasons why immigrants and their children generally out perform native born Americans, regardless of race.
