Do We Really Have the Freedom to Choose?

(Allen Shepherd) #43

Any that voted for Clinton, apparently could not tell the difference either. There was a long history of scandal in his life as well. Known before his election.

But I was addressing the question of racism that the poll mentioned, and showing that if one accepts the huge vote of blacks for Obama without mentioning race, then when whites go for a white guy, then it is not race either. Or both are racist.

Your comment is about character. And Clinton’s way with women was worse than Donald’s. He went for young interns, while Donald for professional prostitutes. Not good, but better than one who takes advantage of a novice.

(George Tichy) #44

Why do evangelicals support a pervert like Trump?

(Allen Shepherd) #45

Because he does not hold “politically correct” positions. Obama took sexual issues way to the left, getting involved in bathroom disputes etc. which should have been taken care of locally. Hillary was Obama II, politically correctness on steroids.

When your cultural position is so attacked, and mocked (“They cling to their guns and religions, etc”) that you are made fun of, you will go with one who will not take such a radical view, regardless of his character flaws.

The re-election of Clinton showed that character was not the main issue. It was positions. If feminists could support Clinton, clearly one who took advantage of women, that is, they held their noses and voted for an abuser who believed as they did on women’s issues, then the Evangelical vote is not so hard to understand.

(George Tichy) #46

OK, enough for me. You are unable to answer a single question on Trump issues; but still have to always mention Clinton and Obama… as IF they had anything to do with Trump’s character that the evangelicals are supporting.

Have a good Sabbath.

(Matthew Quartey) #47

But Allen, aren’t you heading for the bottom with this type of reasoning? Our adversaries played in the gutter and we can too? Evangelicals excoriated Clinton precisely for the very behavior they’re supporting Trump for engaging in. That is what is confusing about their stance: the inconsistencies. If evangelicals deploy a (mis)behavior, they should not relativize it when others who serve their needs embody it. Or should they?

(Pagophilus) #48

It’s not that they don’t believe in science. They don’t believe in what our prophet Ellen White referred to as “science falsely so-called”. I.e. They accept science but not scientism.

I have more of a problem with people who don’t believe biblical teachings, don’t believe core Adventist doctrines yet claim to be SDA (because they still attend church occasionally).

(Pagophilus) #49

Trump may be immoral himself but supports the wishes of the people to resist immorality. Obama may have been moral himself but enforced the acceptance of immorality on the populace. Both hypocrites, but one benefited the “normal” person. Guess which one?

(jeremy) #50

allen, blacks voted for obama in overwhelming numbers because he was the first and only black to run meaningfully for the presidency, ever…they felt that their moment of true belonging had come, after centuries of waiting as second-class citizens, and so nothing was going to stop them…the election of obama by blacks wasn’t racism…it was the life-line many had waited for their whole lives, scarcely daring to hope that they’d see it with their own eyes…

the election of trump by white evangelicals, after news of the hollywood access tape, and after daily exhibitions of his racism, lying and supreme selfishness and narcism, cannot be compared to the nobility and electrifying history that was made when blacks cast their hard-fought vote for obama…first of all, if white evangelicals who voted for trump were at all voting for minuscule molecules of principle, it is only because they successfully overlooked mountains of antithetical departure from that principle, which really means they threw every ounce of whatever principle they pretended to have out the window…but second of all, the regular racist dogwhistles launched by trump at every rally, responded to overwhelmingly by every white supremacist alive, really means that white evangelicals, having thrown out all pretense of principle, were clearly voting for what appealed so strongly to their latent racism, which they were powerless to resist, and which in itself tells you something…

let’s understand that when racists vote for racism, it is when circumstances allow them to hide it…trump provided that opportunity for white evangelicals to hide their racism while voting for him…but no-one looking on, with any sensitivity to what racism is, can possibly be fooled…trump was, is, and forever will be, a racist…he is a racist magnet drawing to his side all racists…it doesn’t matter how strongly anyone denies it, or how many counter narratives are produced to camouflage it…

(Frankmer7) #51

You’ve gotta be kidding. You, a pastor, comparing Trump and Clinton, and rating Trump ahead? As if you can put these things on a scale? This is a man who not only used prostitutes (and check out that scriptural imagery), but bought their silence! This is a man who boasted of using his star power in order to sexually assault women with impunity! Or, maybe you don’t remember that one.

And, speaking of racism, this is a man who refused housing to minorities and particularly African -Americans in the 80’s. This is a man who took out a full page ad and ended up railroading two black men in the Central Park murder… men who wrongfully served time in part because of his vigilante campaign. For which he never issued any apology! But, why would he? This is the same man who said he never did anything for which he needed to ask God for forgiveness.

This is just scratching the surface with the depravity of this man. I’m a New Yorker… We knew what Trump was like for years, an empty con man. It’s too bad the rest of the nation got duped.

Please give up the defense, Alan. It’s beneath you, and your calling. And, please stop the kindergarten comparisons to Bill Clinton. We know Clinton’s moral failings. But this sounds like little children pointing at the behavior of others while trying to justify their own. Just own the problem… religious conservatives voted for and support a man who betrays every moral value for which they purportedly stand. Stop the spin!

The support of the religious right is nothing short of astonishingly hypocritical, for the sake of political influence and power. They might as well be gathered around the judgement seat of Pilate saying, “We have no king but Caesar!”


(Frankmer7) #52

Beautifully stated, Jeremy!


(Allen Shepherd) #53

Clinton and Obama had nothing to do with the reason Trump won. But Clintons and Obamas supporters voted for them for reasons that show why Evangelicals voted for Trump: policy or race. Why did feminists vote for Clinton, a clear woman abuser? They did it because he was on their side, regardless of his actions. Was it hypocrisy? Sure. And you can say the same for Evangelicals. But it is the reason. Why did Blacks vote for Obama? Race. He was black and they voted for him. Same with evangelicals and Trump, if you please.

You are willing to excuse blacks voting for Obama for race, but not whites voting for a white guy for racial reasons. Jeremy thinks the black voting for Obama was noble. No, it was racism, pure and simple. I totally accept and understand why they did it. But it was still racism.

I agree. But if Hillary says they are just a bunch of deplorables, what are they to do? She had no love for their positions. She would crush them with her agenda. When you drive your opponents into the arms of the opposition by your statements, I don’t see how you can criticize them.

You overlook the horrible candidate Hillary was. There were all kinds of reasons to vote against her. When the Democrats elect a person under federal investigation, who was allowed to destroy evidence, it seems a bit disingenuous to criticize those who voted against her as racist and hypocrites. There was no good choice here.

What you are saying is that you will forgive feminists for voting for Clinton who was clearly a womanizer, but will accuse Evangelicals of racism when Hillary calls them a bunch of deplorables and will do all she can to demonize and destroy them.

What were they supposed to do? I might add that Obama politicized the DOJ, FBI and IRS. he was willing to use their power against his opponents. Now there is little evidence that he did it himself, but for him to say that there was no scandal when it is clear the IRS went after conservative groups and that the FBI and DOJ were plotting against Trump, you are overlooking a serious issue.

My problem is your double standard.

(Allen Shepherd) #54

I own the problem. Trump has character issues for sure.

But for you to glibly describe Clinton’s corruption as if it was no big deal and then go into full “they are astonishing hypocritical” shows your own bias. Trump was a womanizer who took advantage of women who consented, BTW. Clinton used his power to do the same with novices who were under his power.

I’d say equivalent at least.

George asked a question: Why did Evangelicals vote for Trump. I am not trying to defend that action, but to say why they did it. There was logic that you folks will nor accept because of your own bias.

Hillary was terrible. It was the problem of two bad choices. Everyone had to hold their nose when they pulled the lever.

Or do wish to answer why honest people would vote for Hillary?

(Allen Shepherd) #55

So Frank, tell me how an honest person was able to vote for Hillary?

I mean, 30,000 e-mails destroyed? Phones smashed? computers wiped clean? Was that just 30,000 accidental taps on the delete button. Just some horrible mistake?

Do you think just maybe she was hiding something?

(Allen Shepherd) #56

Tell me Jeremy, if a person votes on the basis of skin color, is that racism?

(Allen Shepherd) #57

Guys, this was not a 5 candidate race. There were TWO viable candidates. (you could vote for one of the third party guys, but it was a wasted vote. or a conscience vote. Did you vote for one?). So you had to choose to vote for either the philanderer, who would support conservative issues, or the dishonest one who supported liberal issues. Each side had a bad choice.

So to condemn one over the other is just being silly. No one had a good choice.

(George Tichy) #58

Really? Where did you get this from?

Isn’t it amazing (mind boggling) that those who support a pervert like Trump cannot talk about him without bringing up Obama every single time? As if there could ever be any comparison between the two of them. And for Christians to support a man like Trump… it indeed tells a lot about them!!!

(George Tichy) #59

Jeremy, you must have been inspired when you wrote that. Exactly to the point.
Thanks for putting it together so nicely.

(Elmer Cupino) #60

Which is exactly what religion offers to those who can conveniently hide their negative personality traits such as stubbornness behind the concept of “being true to God’s word.” Same psychodynamics, similar symptom formation, different settings, same end results.

This is one major reason behind Trump’s success in seducing evangelicals to vote for him. One does not need to get off his comfort zone.

(George Tichy) #61

So the racist whites oppressed, abused, killed and discriminated against blacks in such an horrible way for centuries.
Now because blacks voted for blacks, it’s called racism? Sane thing, right?

It seems to me that guilt is the major motivator in some people’s attempt to equate the two situations. Maybe focusing on the “black racists” of today will help to obfuscate the memory of the real racists from the past and of the present as well, uh???

Not that fast!..

(Allen Shepherd) #62

Obama was a class act, above the fray in many ways(would not even smooze with his own folk). But also willing to bend the rules a bit.

Trump is a street scraper, who will bend the rules a lot.

So George, did you vote for Hillary? How could you do that? I mean, she did destroy evidence? Are you comfortable with people that do that. No spin now…