Do We Really Have the Freedom to Choose?

(Allen Shepherd) #143

I said: What is wrong with you?

You said, I am a victim of white supremacy. I believer white supremacy to be the chief form of sin in the known universe.

I said We at human just like you

You replied: Prove it.

You paint with too broad a brush. If you think that all whites are white supremacist, you are mistaken. There are a few. If you think there are racists among the rest, there are, but it is not all of them by any means.

I own a house in a certain place that I rented to a black gentleman. He eventually cheated me out of $5000 by manipulating and promising to pay but not doing so. You could criticize me for my naivete, and it was hard to swallow the loss and not be angry about it.

But there is one thing I did not do, which I have heard others do: generalize his character flaw to the whole black race. That would be racism.

You, on the other hand, seem to do just that with the white race.

And I think that would be black racism. See Londis’ comments at 98 above. .

(Elmer Cupino) #144

They made my adolescent years easier to navigate. I saw Paul McCartney’s while he was still with his original backup band “John, George and Ringo” and then most recently on his solo venue at Hershey Park.

(Elmer Cupino) #145

What were the chances that had Cassie @Cassie and her husband landed in Brazil, that she would have returned to the US a progressive SDA?

(jeremy) #146

but jesus talks of weeping and gnashing of teeth…he promised the people of capernaum a worse fate in the judgement than the people of sodom, whom he burned to death in their lifetime…the flood had real people, including innocent babies and children, drowning to death…in sodom and gomorrah, innocent children and babies would have certainly burned to death…elijah called down fire from heaven to burn up captains of fifty twice, who were just wanting to talk to him, and that’s after he personally killed all the prophets of baal, who maybe didn’t know better, and were simply doing what jezebel had ordered them to do…moses and the levites killed 3,000 people after the incident of the golden calf, and that was before god punished them…etc., etc…

i just think we’re in danger of sentimentalizing the character of god based on what we want him to be, similar to the way Israel sentimentalized their messiah to the point where they not only didn’t recognize him when he came, but ended up killing him…in Rev 14, certainly the third angel and the mark of the beast have to be symbolic…but how can being tormented, and having no rest day nor night, be symbolic…is heaven symbolic…what about the second coming of christ…where does this type deconstruction ever end…

(George Tichy) #147

HaHA… I guess all progressive Brazilian SDAs live in the US!!!.. LOL

(Sirje) #148

…and the DANGER is what? How does keeping those pictures of torture in a lake of fire help us live with assurance? It’s only a danger if we want to get away with ignoring God, but hoping for salvation, nevertheless. In that case we’re the wrong track to begin with. Is a Christian in danger if he doesn’t keep those threats uppermost in his mind?


Tudo bem, Georges!?

:musical_note: I’ve never seen the Amazon,
And I’ve never reached Brazil

But I have seen lots of other stuff (oh, lawsy!), including lots of:

O dilloing in his armour…

(Mostly squished in the middle of Texas roads…)


Unless I go to Rio
These wonders to behold—
Roll down—roll down to Rio—
Roll really down to Rio!
Oh, I’d love to roll to Rio
Some day before I’m old!

(Allen Shepherd) #150

What is the purpose of hell? There, on the surface, seems to be no remedial function. Is it a place of vengeance, where God gets to get even? Finally giving the wicked their just deserts? What did Edwards say, “ It is fearful to fall into the hands of an angry God?

What of all the injustice here, like the brutalizations of blacks during Jim Crow etc? Are the wicked just excluded from heaven, and that’s it?

God could just not resurrect them and call it a day, but it seems from Rev 20 that the wicked are purposely brought to life that they might be cast into the lake of fire. Why?

What do you think?

(Sirje) #151

There can only be three reactions to this - 1) Christians - are we horrified, scared, justified; 2) God’s perspective - is God satisfied; 3) unsaved - they are in pain, but only after they have seen Christ return, graves open, angels singing, the saved being lifted to heaven, so, THEY ALREADY UNDERSTAND THEIR MISTAKES. Who, then, needs the pain and agony - and why?

  1. If Christians need to see that - i don’t want to be one. 2) If God needs to see that - I can’t worship Him. 3) If the unsaved need to experience that - for what purpose?

All this while we are told “God hates the sin, but loves the sinner.” So, I DON’T KNOW.


Perhaps that’s because you don’t have slave ancestry?


Why on earth would bring that up, Allen?

That felt like a kick in the gut…to me…and I’m white!


Harry’s link:

(Allen Shepherd) #155

I am not sure it is fair that the wicked get off without suffering some of what they inflicted on others. It seems to me justice would demand that.

Is such thinking unjustified?


Ah, yes, THE WICKED and their richly-deserved “just deserts.”

Just another category to manipulate with our discursive minds…to distract ourselves from…what?

No need to breathe and feel what we’re actually talking about, right?

Doctrines are logical categories.

Just the facts, ma’am.


(I realize that I’m covering both sides of this argument; I have my reasons.)

(Elmer Cupino) #157

This is commonly seen in family guidance clinics among children and siblings. I only wonder how much of unresolved neurosis influence how we create our gods.

(Allen Shepherd) #158

Harry thinks I’m a white supremicist. Even not worthy to be included among the humans. And that whites as a group are bad people, and no pride in their accomplishments are allowed. Pretty negative view.

I don’t hold blacks or him in that regard even though cheated by some. I know some that would.

I am unsure of the reason for your response.

(Sirje) #159

Well, I grew up hearing horror stories about the Russian and Nazi occupations of the country I was born in. My aunts, uncles, cousins stayed behind as my parents whisked me out of the country in a leaky fishing boat across the Baltic just before the “curtain made of iron” was drawn. My aunt, an Adventist in Estonia, wrote us letters in code so as not to be identified as having family on the other side of that curtain. She was required to spend weeks every summer working on a communal farm - for no pay, praying it would rain before sundown on Fridays. I guess that qualifies as ancestral slavery.

I do have had reasons to see those Ruskies burn; but I realize, as an adult, that they were as much slaves to a system that spoke about equality as long as the guys at the top of the pecking order got to ride around in limos draped in flags. Like George Orwell says in Animal Farm - all the pigs are equal, but “some are more equal then others”. We all have our stories.


Physiological, Allen. My solar plexus is still in a knot.

I’m going to go lie down and listen to some beautiful music and breathe.

Perhaps you could do the same. Feelings might come up. Allow them.

Peace, brother.

May all sheep and lambs graze safely evermore.

(George Tichy) #163

Claro, tudo bem! Exceto certos individuos postando bobagem aqui… LOL

I know the IPAE. Nice place in the mountains, close to Rio but far enough to be safe and have good, clean air. I have been there a few time visiting when our class traveled, etc.

You gotta go visit the place. But be careful in Rio…


Thank you Elmer. I felt that benediction wash over my whole being, releasing tension, freeing my diaphragm to reflexively take a deep breath at the end, and I felt your healing intent. Just what the doctor ordered!

Porges polyvagal theory gave us a powerful means of understanding how both bodily states and mental constructs dynamically interact with environmental triggers to precipitate maladaptive behaviors. Porges helped us understand how dynamic our biological systems are and gave us an explanation why a kind face and a soothing tone of voice can dramatically alter the entire organization of the human organism—that is, how being seen and understood can help shift people out of disorganized and fearful states.

We had long realized that psychopathological states rarely are static and tend to fluctuate greatly depending
on the safety of the en­vironment and the physiological state in which people find
themselves. The proposal that our physiological states are flexible, and depend on
both our relationship to our visceral experiences and the state of our relationships
promises to decrease our dependence on drug treatment alone to shift people into a
different psychological organization

  • “The Polyvagal Theory: Neurophysiological Foundations of Emotions, Attachment, Communication, and Self-regulation (Norton Series on Interpersonal Neurobiology)” by Stephen W. Porges