Do You Really Want to Know?


(Kim Green) #304

Yes, some are called, “Messianic Jews for Christ”. There was group that met at our old SDA church in Ca. for quite some time.

More info:
https://www.equip.org/article/the-messianic-congregational-movement/


(Cfowler) #305

Now we have the Hebrew Roots movement among some Christians. They are going back to the Torah.


(Kade Wilkinson) #306

And yet their manner of life was “like the gentiles.” (Gal 2:14)


(Frankmer7) #307

You don’t take it far enough. All of the Law means the entire Torah. All 613 commands…or nothing. This is what Paul means when in Galatians he says, “If you allow yourself to be circumcised, you are obligated to keep the entire Law.” He means the entire Torah, not just the ten. This is the typical Adventist mislabeling of the Law. Torah means Torah…the whole thing. This is what Romey was talking about. If you really want to live life under the Law, this is now your covenantal obligation, according to Paul and his letter to the Galatians. Good luck!

Jesus said that the Spirit would convict the world concerning sin, righteousness, and judgement. This all revolves around faith in him in John’s gospel, and particularly in that passage. Clearly, judgement is not simply based on the Law, because if it was, no human being would pass it. Secondly, what is the criteria? Is it the pharisaic belief that more good works than bad balance out the scales in ones favor? Not according to what Jesus is saying in the fourth gospel.

Paul, in Romans 14, speaks about standing before the bema/judgement seat of God, each of us giving account of ourselves to God. He says this in the context of not passing judgement on one another over matters of food and holy times. Nowhere does he mention that judgement is based on the ten commandments in this passage.

Neither does Paul say this in 1 Cor. 3, where he does say that the work that one does can only be built on the foundation of Jesus Christ…not the Law. He then says that the quality of ones work will be revealed in that Day (presumably the day of the Lord), and that if ones work survives he will receive the reward. If ones work is burned up, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, as one escaping through the flames. IOW, Paul seems to be indicating here that judgement for believers is about differing rewards, not whether they are saved or lost by their keeping of the ten.

Again, nowhere in this passage are the ten commandments said to be the criteria of judgement. Rather, Jesus, and faithfulness to his call upon our lives and the gifts and opportunities he has given us is. This places everything on a much more relational footing, than on measuring up to a legal code.

These seem to be the strongest statements in the NT on judgement by works. They don’t mention the ten, or the law as the criteria. Please share with me from the NT where you see otherwise. Maybe I’m missing it.

Thanks…

Frank


(Frankmer7) #308

Yes, I agree. And, Judaizing Christians were those who tried to impose Jewish practices upon Gentile converts. Not Jews who continued in their traditions while declaring faith in Jesus.

Romans 14-15 indicates that Paul made room for both, even though he recognized that the covenantal obligations of life under the Law were over. Galatians also contains the statement that, "In Christ Jesus, circumcision nor uncircumcision means nothing, but a new creation." The new creation was the unity of Jews as Jews and Gentiles as Gentiles in the Messiah. Paul didn’t urge Jews to now follow uncircumcision and become Gentiles. He simply said that the distinction between the two groups vis a vis belonging to Christ and the people of God now meant nothing. Paul was not simply talking about ethnic distinction, but in terms of their lifestyles and practices. He acknowledged the differences, didn’t seek to force one upon the other, and urged mutual acceptance.

Tell me what you think these passages from Romans and Galatians are saying concerning this issue. I’d be interested to read your take.

Thanks…

Frank


#309

Romey,

You know that meat eating was not the original diet that God gave human beings or the animals. God allowed meat consumption after the flood because the food supplies were limited. But it is not the ideal plan that God had in mind for his people. And the Bible even says that, on the new earth, the lion will eat straw like the ox (Isaiah 11:7).

Even in the world today, a plant-based diet is recognized to be healthier to a meat-based one (for example, see 1, 2 ,3, or 4).

Check here what EGW said about meat.

I failed to see where the Bible allows alcohol consumption in Lev 10:9. As for strong drinks, the Bible asks people not to drink them. Here are interesting links (1,2)

Considering coffee, here is an interesting article (here).

It is interesting to notice that EGW speaks about this practice in a context, for example, the youth and the children, or in the marriage, or in connection to imagination.

When a teenager, or an unmarried person practices masturbation, what is this person thinking about? Is this moral according to the Bible (see what Jesus says about lust)?

Also masturbation can also become an addiction.

In what way does EGW prunes away at Christian liberties? And when you speak about liberties, are you talking about meat, alcohol, coffee consumption, and masturbation?


(Kim Green) #310

Interesting…do you have a link?


(Kade Wilkinson) #311

I would say neither of those definitions is quite right. From wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaizers)

Happily. I’ll use you statements to agree and differ:

Yes, but Galatians also contains the warning “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” Circumcision was replaced by baptism in the early Church, which is why the church has always baptized babies, just as the Jews circumcised babies. Christian children of both sexes bear the mark of the Christian covenant, while only male Jewish children bore the mark of the Jewish covenant. Thus the fullness is more expansive than the type.

No, the new creation is former Jews and former Gentiles made new as Christians through baptism. See 2 Corinthians 5:17.

But he did warn the non-circumcised not to accept circumcision. See Galations 5:2

Actually, he encouraged both to put away their former lifestyles and practices, and accept a new, Christian way of life. The old has passed away, whether the “old” was Jewish or pagan, and the New has come. (2 Cor 5:17 again)


(Frankmer7) #312

Adventists immediately equate this with the ten. This is not reading John contextually. Jesus has already talked about how he followed his father’s commands, and then speaks to his disciples about following his. Some kind of distinction is already in play.

More strongly, Jesus, in John 13, commanded his disciples to wash one another’s feet as he had washed theirs…IOW the call to humble service. Where is this enumerated in the letter of the ten? Then, in the same passage you quote, he says that his command is for his disciples to love one another as he has loved them. Love one another with the same type of self giving love that characterizes Jesus’s own love. Where is this enumerated in the letter of the ten?

1 John, presumably by the same author, says that we have confidence before God because we obey/keep his commands and do what pleases him. He then goes on to say that this is his command, and enumerates it into two separate commands: "To believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another, as he commanded us."

Rather than the ten, this boils God’s commands down to the same principles that undergird the fourth gospel, and that Paul also lays out: Faith that expresses itself in love." A personal and vital connection to Jesus through faith in him, that spills over into love for one another. These are the commandments of God reiterated in various forms in the NT.

For those that fear that this is antinomianism, this is a higher calling than Sinai.

Thanks…

Frank


(Cfowler) #313

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/3633-hebrew-roots-movement

here is one…


#314

I didn’t say if I was speaking of the Ten Commandment or not. I just mentioned what Jesus said to show that Christianity was not just about lifestyle but also about following some commandments (according to Jesus).


(Frankmer7) #315

Kade…

The definition that you highlighted from Wikipedia is essentially the same thing I was saying. Jewish believers were saying this was necessary for Gentiles to be saved, accepted into the covenant people of God. This is the context and controversy of the Jerusalem council in Acts. It doesn’t address Jewish believers who continued in that vein. This is why two streams of mission were set up. Paul to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. It was more than an ethnic distinction and shows that the apostolic church acknowledged the differing lifestyles and practices of both groups, while laboring for unity in the Messiah.

He is addressing Gentiles who are succumbing to Judaizing teachers trying to impose this upon them. He is not saying that Jews can’t continue to practice this, even though it no longer contains covenantal significance. This is simply not addressed in the Galatian letter. Later, he goes as far as having Timothy circumcised for missionary purposes. If he viewed this as totally forbidden under the reign of the Messiah, he would never have done so.

I believe that Paul’s flexibility regarding these issues exceeds the picture given by Ignatius, and the picture you are giving. He was as a Gentile when with them, as one not under Law when with those who were not, and as one who was under Law when with those who were. These matters became inconsequential in light of the freedom of the gospel. IOW, Paul was the apostle of freedom, and his issue was with those who sought to spy out that freedom, and impose legal practices of Torah upon Gentiles for belonging. This he adamantly opposed.

Thanks for the discussion!

Frank


(Cfowler) #316

The few that I’m aware of keep the Sabbath/Feasts, don’t do holidays like Easter, Christmas. Some wear the shawl with the tassels (tzisis?) and some of the women wear head coverings. Also removing yeast from their home for Passover, I think. And of course, following the OT diet. I’ve heard some of them use the term “walking in Torah”. They also usually believe that the Christians churches are wrong in most things. They usually call Jesus Yeshua. Even in our tiny town, there is a group of Hebrew Roots people, at least there was.


(Kade Wilkinson) #317

Here is why I say that is close but not quite right. Judiazers are not those who claim it is necessary for Gentiles to accept Jewish laws and customs, they are those who say it is necessary for Christians to accept them. In Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, only Christians. (Gal 3:28)

But St. Peter was the first to preach specifically to Gentiles, and spent his ministry at Antioch in Syria and in Rome, leaving St. James as the bishop in Jerusalem to evangelize the Hebrews.


(Frankmer7) #318

Yes, all are one in Christ Jesus. All means Jew, Gentile, male, female, slave and free. Men didn’t stop being men, nor women being women. Slaves were still in the same social position, and free people didn’t become slaves. And, Jews didn’t cease being Jews or Gentiles being Gentiles with the distinctions that those things carried. Being Christian was not a call to erase those distinctions, it was a call to stand united as one with them, even celebrating them, in Christ.

To say that there was neither Jew nor Gentile, etc., was also a call to not impose these distinctions upon one another or claim status over one another while claiming faith in Christ Jesus, as was happening in the Galatian controversy, vis a vis the Law.
Thanks…

Frank


(Steve Mga) #319

Jewish, Islamic, Buddhist Christians.
One thing we have to recognize in all three of these, the REAL TEACHINGS
challenge Goodness in the person, in society.
Many of the Teachings of Jesus are FOUND in the teachings of these groups.
The Teachings of Jesus were MIRRORING God’s teachings, thoughts, character,
love for His Human Creation.

Jesus came to save the world from sin - the penalty of sin which is Death in which
there is no PLAN for resurrection, and continued Life later on.
Other Religions call for a plan for living a “good person life”. But Jesus Christ is the
REASON for having a “plan for living a good person life.” And the Spirit of God [Allah,
Adonai, or by another name] is what gives us the POWER to carry out the “plan for
living a good person life.” There is the Book of 66 Books by which we can receive
instruction on HOW living a good person life LOOKS like. It can also be a Prayer
Book for us in learning HOW to pray. How to have personal relationship with God
[Allah, Adonai, or by another name]. But Jesus asks us to call God “My Father”.
Jesus asks us to call Him “My Brother”. To look at all beings “in heaven” and on
Earth as being “Family” to us.

WHERE do Other Holy Books ask us to Look for “God”?
Jesus tells us that God is up in heaven. Jesus tells us that God is also here on Earth.
Jesus tells us that God is Within us. Jesus tells us we find God is everywhere and
close to us.


(Kade Wilkinson) #320

Frank,

I made 2 edits to your post (in bold). If your meaning survived my edits, than I agree with you completely:

The term Jew/Jews/Jewish is ambiguous because it sometimes means an ethnicity, and sometimes a religion. And while Jewish converts to Christianity were not in any way called to give up their ethnicity, they were certainly called to give up their religion, just as pagan converts were then, and just as Jewish and pagan converts are today.


(Steve Mga) #321

Nymous –
Jesus First Commandment is “LOVE”
LOVE God.
LOVE Yourself.
LOVE Others
Serve.

Jesus DID expand on “LOVE to God”. Jesus DID expand on “LOVE to Yourself”
Jesus DID expand on “LOVE to Others.” Jesus DID expand on “SERVE”.


(Kim Green) #322

Interesting…it amazes me how many religious groups/denominations that there are in the US alone!


(Kim Green) #323

There’s a belief system for everyone…literally.