Do You Really Want to Know?


(James Peterson) #344
  • The week has 7 days and repeats itself. In other words, after Saturday, there is the beginning of another week in Sunday. One does not live in a FOREVER SATURDAY.

  • Secondly, in Heb. 4:8 (which you quoted), it says, “If Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.” This can be expressed more clearly so: “Jesus did not give them rest. So he spoke afterwards of the same day. A day of rest. The seventh day in which He rested.” That is why the passage continues, “For he that is entered into this rest, he also hath ceased from his own works as God did from his.” (v. 10)
     
    But what works do we cease from, since the passage urges, “Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief” (v. 11)? It is obvious that we are looking forward to a rest. We are not living in that rest right now.

THE REST is found in paradise to come.

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(Kade Wilkinson) #345

Speak for yourself.

image

I see you did not look up the eschatological 8th day. Generally speaking, it is easier to answer a point if you first understand it.


(Tim Teichman) #346

Yes, one does wonder how critical it can possibly be to follow her proclamations when even she didn’t.

Most likely she viewed them as good ideas, but not critical for salvation. Whether they’re good ideas or not (some not) we should probably consider them in the same light.

She was wrong on a fair number of things, including theological statements as well as details of the health message. For example, it turns out that vegetarians - even vegans - are not as healthy as pescatarians.


(James Peterson) #347

Why did you quote CS Lewis, and want others to go searching among great many words concerning an eschatological 8th day for an answer, when the book of Hebrews easily interprets itself concerning the matter of when we do enter THAT REST?

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.” Heb. 12:1-2

cf.Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the [poor example set by the Hebrews] of disobedience.” Heb. 4:11

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(Alice C ) #348

It’s been interesting to follow this conversation, which seems to have become a discussion about rules. When I moved from Andrews (undergraduate degree) to Loma Linda for graduate work, I found many regional differences in rule following. I coined the phrase “smorgasbord of Adventist do’s and don’ts” to describe the way most Adventists seem to pick and choose which rules they deem most important to keep. This includes the ones they choose to judge others by.

I also remember Frank Knittel, when president at Southern, pointing out that in the eastern US, people thought riding horses was not an appropriate Sabbath activity. In the western US, horseback riding was considered the only way to take a Sabbath afternoon walk.

I believe the Holy Spirit is more capable than any of us at teaching us as individuals which behaviors and thoughts are most important in our lives and of helping us to live up to the light we have. Trying to make or justify rules for other people is almost guaranteed to fail at some point. We are all growing in grace and some areas of our lives take longer than others to mature.


(James Peterson) #349

Though I agree with you, I would just like to point out that the article and discussion are more along the lines of administrative responsibility rather than personal conduct.

So, for example, you may choose to ride on Saturdays. That’s OK. However, think of the administrative perspective. What would you advise a congregation for which you are responsible? You may like, as another example, being casually dressed, but from a managerial perspective, and thinking of the image you wish to project about your company, what clothes would you recommend your employees wear at work? What would you expect of their social media activities?

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#350

If your church title has “Seventh-Day” in it, chances are it’s more than just arbitrary do’s and don’ts…

“It is a symbol of our redemption in Christ, a sign of our sanctification, a token of our allegiance, and a foretaste of our eternal future in God’s kingdom. The Sabbath is God’s perpetual sign of His eternal covenant between Him and His people.” SDA Believe, p.281

“The delivering of this message will precipitate a conflict that will involve the whole world. The central issue will be obedience to God’s law and the observance of the Sabbath. In the face of this conflict everyone must decide whether to keep God’s commandments or those of men. This message will produce a people who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. Those who reject it will eventually receive the mark of the beast (Rev.14:9, 12; see chapter 13 of this book).” SDA Believe, p. 296.

“It means eternal salvation to keep the Sabbath holy unto the Lord. God says: “Them that honor Me I will honor.” 1 Samuel 2:30.” 474 {CCh 264.4}

“The seal of the living God is placed upon those who conscientiously keep the Sabbath of the Lord.”–7BC 980 (1897).

“Those who would have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment.”–7BC 970 (1899). {LDE 220.2}

“True observance of the Sabbath is the sign of loyalty to God.”–7BC 981 (1899). {LDE 220.3}

“The observance of the Lord’s memorial, the Sabbath instituted in Eden, the seventh-day Sabbath, is the test of our loyalty to God.”–Letter 94, 1900. {LDE 220.5}

“I saw that the present test on the Sabbath could not come until the mediation of Jesus in the holy place was finished and He had passed within the second veil; therefore Christians who fell asleep before the door was opened into the most holy, when the midnight cry was finished, at the seventh month, 1844, and who had not kept the true Sabbath, now rest in hope, for they had not the light and the test on the Sabbath which we now have since that door was opened. I saw that Satan was tempting some of God’s people on this point. Because so many good Christians have fallen asleep in the triumphs of faith and have not kept the true Sabbath, they were doubting about its being a test for us now. . . .” {LDE 222.2}

“The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord’s memorial of creation. . . . The mark of the beast is the opposite of this–the observance of the first day of the week.”–8T 117 (1904). {LDE 224.3}

“God has given men the Sabbath as a sign between Him and them as a test of their loyalty. Those who, after the light regarding God’s law comes to them, continue to disobey and exalt human laws above the law of God in the great crisis before us, will receive the mark of the beast.”–Ev 235 (1900). {LDE 225.1}

“The Sabbath will be the great test of loyalty, for it is the point of truth especially controverted. When the final test shall be brought to bear upon men, then the line of distinction will be drawn between those who serve God and those who serve Him not.” {LDE 225.2}

“The Sabbath is the great test question. It is the line of demarkation between the loyal and true and the disloyal and transgressor. This Sabbath God has enjoined, and those who claim to be commandment keepers, who believe that they are now under the proclamation of the third angel’s message, will see the important part the Sabbath of the fourth commandment holds in that message. It is the seal of the living God. They will not lessen the claims of the Sabbath to suit their business of convenience.”–Manuscript 34, 1897. {3SM 423.2}

Ellen White goes so far as to state that “…the rejection of God’s holy memorial [the Sabbath] will decide the fate of many professing Christians.” Review and Herald, Dec. 20, 1898.

“I saw that the holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers; and that the Sabbath is the great question, to unite the hearts of God’s dear waiting saints. And if one believed, and kept the Sabbath, and received the blessing attending it, and then gave it up, and broke the holy commandment, they would shut the gates of the Holy City against themselves, as sure as there was a God that rules in heaven above. I saw that God had children, who do not see and keep the Sabbath. They had not rejected the light on it. And at the commencement of the time of trouble, we were filled with the Holy Ghost as we went forth, and proclaimed the Sabbath more fully. This enraged the church, and nominal Adventists, as they could not refute the Sabbath truth.” Broadside 2 – April 7, 1847

“God requires that His holy day be as sacredly observed now as in the time of Israel. The command given to the Hebrews should be regarded by all Christians as an injunction from Jehovah to them. The day before the Sabbath should be made a day of preparation, that everything may be in readiness for its sacred hours. In no case should our own business be allowed to encroach upon holy time. God has directed that the sick and suffering be cared for; the labor required to make them comfortable is a work of mercy, and no violation of the Sabbath; but all unnecessary work should be avoided. Many carelessly put off till the beginning of the Sabbath little things that might have been done on the day of preparation. This should not be. Work that is neglected until the beginning of the Sabbath should remain undone until it is past. This course might help the memory of these thoughtless ones, and make them careful to do their own work on the six working days.” Pat. & Prophs., 296, par. 1


(jeremy) #351

these passages need to be combined with what paul says in 1 Cor 10, in which he links eating and drinking with the glory of god…it is true that he is talking specifically about eating food dedicated to idols and not offending people, but given the general nature of the counsel in this chapter, we cannot separate eating well, and good health, from the glory of god…

paul counselled timothy to drink a little wine to settle his stomach…why didn’t he urge timothy to remain sick and pray more, if there is no nexus between health, personal effort and spirituality…john wished gaius good health above all things to the same extent that his spirituality was prospering…this suggests that gaius was experiencing illness, and that the apostle was wishing him well in whatever efforts he was making to get well…remember that jesus was famous for healing people, and in at least one case, he tied healing to the forgiveness of sins…he didn’t teach people to remain sick and cultivate more faith…it’s absurd to think that health and spirituality don’t go together…because these stories would have been well-known, it’s reasonable to think that good health would have a priority for the apostolic church, which had the life and deeds of jesus in its living memory…

and don’t forget that moses laid out many laws, received from god, related to health, some of which came with the death penalty for infractions…obviously the OT church also prioritized good health…

good health and spirituality are linked in the bible, and the life of christ…i don’t find it surprising that egw links them, at all…if she didn’t, i think we’d have cause to be suspicious…


(Frankmer7) #352

Whether or not one rides a horse on sabbath, wears casual as opposed to dress clothes to church, or any other matters such as these, would be what Paul would file under disputable/secondary matters. He went far beyond these small issues in his characterization of these.

This branch of this thread illustrates the problem of the culture of Adventism. The fact that we would even consider these types of inconsequential things as matters of conscience or administration, or even meriting discussion, shows that Adventism has bred a culture and way of thinking in which there are no secondary matters. Everything has been considered of crucial moral importance, from horse riding on Saturdays to the number of meals one eats, to wedding rings, etc. I wonder where this distorted thinking came from?

To even think that these approach what genuine spirituality is, and that this needs to be worked out on a congregational level, is all about not seeing the forest for the trees, and to most people would seem downright bizarre. It totally misses Paul’s counsel, “Let every person be convinced in their own mind.”

Why can’t we just live and let live?!

Frank


(Frankmer7) #353

Oh, Paul! Never saw all those quotes together! What a distortion of the covenants, and what a distortion of the seal that indicates belonging to God. The NT is clear that it is the reception of the Holy Spirit upon believing in/joining up with Christ. Worst of all, what a burden to put upon people that she had no business doing.

Thanks…

Frank


(James Peterson) #354

If you were ever a manager or CEO, you would understand.

It came from the Bible.

Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God.” 1 Cor. 11:13-16

You might want to read the Torah too, especially Leviticus by Moses who wrote many things saying, “Thus saith the LORD, …”

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#355

How do you know that Frank isn’t a manager or CEO?


(James Peterson) #356

I don’t. I’m just saying that if he were ever one, he’d understand.

https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/interviewing/how-to-dress-for-a-job-interview

See #1 especially.

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(jeremy) #357

i don’t think manna and bread are the same thing…


(Frankmer7) #358

If Paul was bringing Jews and Jewish Christians under condemnation for still practicing Jewish customs such as scrupulousness over foods, Sabbath and holy times, etc. then what do you make of Rom. 14:1-15:7?

To paraphrase:

One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special does so to the Lord. He who eats meet eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to the Lord, and he who abstains does so to the Lord, and gives thanks to God…

Therefore, let us stop passing judgement on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling or obstacle in your brother’s way…

So, whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But, the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak, and not to please ourselves, each of us should please his neighbor for his good to build him up. For even Christ did not please himself…

May the God who gives endurance and hope give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and one mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Accept one another, then, as God in Christ has accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.

While Paul identifies the two groups as the strong and the weak in this passage, this is written to a church whose membership was mixed…congregations/tenement churches composed of Jews and Gentiles. What were the differing practices he spoke of that he termed in 14:1 as disputable matters? If, as many who are not SDA’s, believe that Jewish holy times, including the Sabbath, are referred to here, why would Paul call these as such? Why would he counsel acceptance of one another with such differing practices, if he condemned outright observance of holy times or scruples over diet as being a denial of Christ? How and why is this different than his outright condemnation of the teachers coming into the Galatian churches, preaching circumcision and Torah observance for Gentile belonging? Or is it?

Some things to think about. I’m interested in your thoughts.

Thanks…

Frank
@kade @Paul62 @timteichman


(Frankmer7) #359

The pastor of a church is not a CEO. The church is not a corporation or a company. The identification of the church according to Jesus is not the clothes we wear, it’s the love we show. That’s clearly in the NT.

The counsel that Paul gives about head coverings for women to pray publicly in the assembly had to do with issues of modesty and immodesty in that culture. Not whether one sits in a pew wearing jeans or a business suit.

You may want to read the NT in context and parse out what are the bedrock principles, as opposed to far less consequential matters. This is exactly the problem within Adventism… everything is viewed as a life or death spiritual matter. Where did this come from? I think we all know.

Frank


(James Peterson) #360

That’s unfortunate, because they are.

While Israel was travelling through the wilderness, there was no opportunity to plant and reap wheat, so God provided bread for them.

Our fathers ate THE MANNA in the desert; as it is written, He gave them BREAD from heaven to eat.” John 6:31


(James Peterson) #361

Really? Here’s another one for you. “… in like manner also, that the women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with propriety and moderation, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or costly clothing,” 1 Tim. 2:9

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(Frankmer7) #362

So…your point??

Frank


(James Peterson) #363

Because you asked …

I’m showing you that people who are in positions of responsibility for organizations that are careful about their image, inevitably come around to strongly recommending clothes and diet and such like things. I also pointed out to you that Moses, on behalf of God, did the same thing for Israel.

I must say to you that every time I see a girl without makeup and jewelry, I often think of her as either an SDA or genuine faith-based Evangelical. It’s the image I have of them and the image I suspect, they wish me to have of them as well.

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