Do You Really Want to Know?


You are totally right.

(Alice C ) #425

My point was not about corporate or organizational behavior. Of course, there need to be dress codes in certain places for certain roles. But they should be communicated and enforced carefully and with compassion for those with limited means. But to deny someone admission to a church service because of dress or to condemn someone for not following our personal diet or Sabbath rules is not appropriate. And I’ve met some of the people who think they are “gently” pointing out someone else’s faults. They seldom come across as gentle.


Orthodoxy as in generally accepted and establish beliefs, as in Status Quo.

(Kade Wilkinson) #427

The Status Quo in the US is far from Orthodoxy.


(Johnny Carson) #429

In other words, it makes them idolatry. Even the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

Seems to me that Jesus spent his short lifespan on earth teaching a way of life that surpassed the rules, yet we keep on making them, especially for everyone besides ourselves. Reminds me of the old saying, “I love you, My Lord, and I will follow you and believe in the precepts you taught. But deliver me, Lord, from the judgment of the saints who’ve never been caught.”

(Steve Mga) #430

Alice –
NOT ONLY Sabbath “dress code”, but jewelry [piercings are also called Jewelry nowdays],
makeup some places disqualifies some from attending SDA services, at least in the
Tattoos now days have to be OK, as one could have gotten them before they were
“saved”. Some of them can be quite extensive in their “body art”.

(Kim Green) #431

Yes…it makes them “idolatrous” to the extent that they replace Christ. I am not against some organizational “rules” so that there are some order- but 28 of them seems quite excessive to me. Of course, I do have some objections to extra-canonical teachings as well and Adventism isn’t the only one that is guilty of this one.

Yes, I believe that the simple “Gospel” has gotten swallowed up with most denomination’s different “theologies”. It seems to be human nature to want to come up with new and novel ways of seeing “truth”. I don’t know if there can be anything be done to avoid some of the “saints” judgements…except to keep one’s distance if possible. :smile:

(Johnny Carson) #432

I agree, a place for everything and everything in it’s place, and if I’m not prepared to bring everything into question from time to time then we’re right back at “idolatrous.”

Or not, and just ignore them :hushed::rofl:

(Kim Green) #433

“Or not, and just ignore them :hushed::rofl:

Yes…there’s always that, however, some of the “saints” make it nearly impossible to ignore them. :laughing:

(Johnny Carson) #434

In which case it seem appropriate to smile and laugh and be happy… :slight_smile:

(Kim Green) #435

With or without “chemical” support?? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

(Johnny Carson) #436

That would be a matter of personal choice, right…? Ahem… :innocent:

(Beverley Joseph ) #437

It is not my intention to be judgmental, insensitive or naive by my comments that will follow. I just have another view on the root cause why young people and older ones for that matter leave the church. I believe that many, if not most, did not really have a genuine relationship with Jesus or God or failed to maintain a relationship with Him.

Many of us in the church have a relationship with the church or rules but not with Jesus. Therefore, when things don’t go well, and that can be for all sorts of reasons, or when the rules become problematic we leave the church. In this generation church for many is primarily viewed as a social club (unconsciously of course); and if things are not going our way, we are quick to leave.

If we have a relationship with Jesus that is based on love for Him, the truth and the Spirit, our views of the rules would be different. We are a peculiar people traveling on a narrow road to meet our Leader, who gave up the comfort and privileges of heaven so that we can spend eternity with Him.

Unfortunately, many of our young people leave the church before they have the opportunity to develop a personal relationship with Jesus. They may know some of our doctrines but that’s not good enough to hold them. The question then is, Why are they not developing this relationship? I am sure that there are various reasons for this.

(Alice C ) #438

It can be difficult for young people to develop a relationship with Jesus when many of their interactions with those who claim to have a relationship with Him judge the outward appearance and behavior of young people without ever introducing them to Jesus. Sometimes it seems as thought they are expected to magically find Jesus amidst the rules and regulations.

Your point is well taken, but someone needs to introduce them to Jesus before they can enjoy a relationship with Him. That doesn’t happen as often as we think it is.

(George Tichy) #439

I would love to hear a clarification/expansion of this concept of having “a relationship with Jesus” in pragmatic terms. I have heard it for all my life (I am 68, and counting… lol) but never heard what it actually means. The wording is always nice, sounds very spiritual and “heavenly,” but means absolutely nothing until it is explained in details, in practical terms.

Would you care commenting more on this issue?

(George Tichy) #440

What does it really mean, “introduce them to Jesus?”

(Kade Wilkinson) #441

If this was the case, I would expect former SDAs to turn their backs on Christianity altogether, rather than converting to more historic branches of Christianity.

(Alice C ) #442

Ah, that’s the difficulty. My observation is that 1) only someone who knows Jesus as a personal friend and Savior (and I know there are various definitions for that!) and 2) is capable of relating personally to the individual will successfully “introduce” Jesus. But mentorship is important and helping the other person(s) to learn to seek for themselves (Bible study, prayer, asking for Holy Spirit’s guidance, etc., etc.) is important. To be simplistic, I think the personal relationships, vertical and horizontal, are what it takes. And different people are effective with different people. The sad thing is when the young (or older) person finds no one to relate to and hasn’t the experience to know how to find God by themselves. Plus, it’s a process–many of us have waxed and waned in our experience for a variety of reasons.

(Steve Mga) #443

SDAs are OK with Bible READING, but to Ask Questions of the Verses as one READS
or Hears the spoken word is DANGEROUS. To ask – What are you trying to say? –
are dangerous words for SDAs.
The problem is, they might learn, which might be OTHER than what they were taught.
Then one begins to ASK more questions.
MEDITATION is another NO! NO! for SDAs. It is considered Dangerous.
“Transformation” and “Spiritual Formation” are considered SDA heresies brought in
from other un-approved denominations. So THESE are NO! NO!'s.

So we have to be Careful how we teach young believers on “meeting Jesus”.
How we explain carrying Jesus with us along the Path of Life. And to maintain
the conversation with Him.

PS – I have learned all this from reading posts here on Spectrum over time.
There is a Lot of FEAR out there in the pews from being told so many spiritual
activities are from the Devil. Just hearing the words send shivers down their spines.
[Have also heard the same promoted in my own SDA church from the pulpit]