Does What We Believe Save Us?

(Allen Shepherd) #61

Not a deflection at all, but an honest concerned inquiry.


Hi again Allen,
Just to clarify my position, I don’t see the methods God will use as similar to how I understand the Roman Catholic vision of purgatory. Again, it involves quite a different understanding of the next stage of the plan of salvation God has in store for us.

The fire will not be literal. Peter talked of submitting to and learning from our present ‘fiery’ trials. The judgments of God are likened to fire - when the Ancient of Days sat in judgment, ‘A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him’ (Dan 7:10). When the disciples suggested to Jesus that He call down literal fire from heaven to consume a village that did not accept their teachings, Jesus rebuked them and said He did not come to destroy but to save (Luke 9:54-55).

I believe the process will be primarily restorative, not punitive. One of the rewards of those who are ‘blessed and holy’ and take part in the first resurrection is that they will be priests of God and reign with Christ (Rev 20:6). I think part of their responsibility will be to educate and if necessary discipline and thus assist those who are not yet ready for glorification.


I appreciate the time off.

Q. Did you miss me?
A. “Yeah like the plague!”

Speaking of plague
1 month ban gave me a chance to go to Mecca and sweep the locusts off the sidewalks.


Haven’t Adventists figured this out yet?
People are saved by…keeping the LAW.


Where is the kitchen sink?

(Cfowler) #66

Is it? It seems like a such a cut and dried question. I still don’t agree that it is an intellectual question. I’m having a hard time imagining a Christian, or a Christian pastor, responding to someone that this is an intellectual question. If explaining the Gospel can’t be done easily, I think someone has lost the thread of the story.


The Gospel is simple. He chose fishermen who were willing to communicate it. They were the original spreaders of the Gospel.

The Gospel has mystery and depth. We will study it through eternity.

(Cfowler) #68

It is simple…children can understand the simple Gospel, yet it is profound and staggering.


Mark 12:28-31 seems plain enough for me:

The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.
The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.

(Allen Shepherd) #70

I was thinking of this along the lines of how the Pharisees did, constantly debating what the greatest commandment was. Jesus settled it for us, but for them, it was not so clear at all. And was just a topic of debate rather than a inquiry to change ones life.

(Johnny Carson) #71

It is exactly that, Carol, except for the segment of Christians who like to bind burdens upon the backs of others. For them it becomes very complicated, the more to exercise their power over lesser mortals, aka, the vulnerable.

(James Peterson) #72

That is VERY far from the truth.

First of all, the church is not your own. It belongs to Christ; and He said very plainly and solemnly, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’” Mat. 7:21-23

God is NOT afraid to say, “We simply don’t agree. If you wish to leave, then… there is the door.”

Acts 5:1-11


(George Tichy) #73

Are you sure your reply is actually YOUR opinion on “what is the gospel?” Just wondering… :thinking:

(George Tichy) #74

WO is not really the issue. The issue is actually discrimination.
Any talk using the “WO” terminology will distract from the real problem, one that comes first. The “WO” issue is just a sub-product related to the central problem, discrimination.

For Christians to believe in and defend discrimination they must actually believe in some kind of (strange, anathema) non-true-Christian ideology. But it is not part of the true Christian theology. True Christians cannot sponsor discrimination, un;less they really want to change their skins…

(Johnny Carson) #75

I’d be mighty careful, as a mere human, in my efforts to show anyone the door, spiritually or organizationally. Jesus clearly taught that even in light of his scathing rebukes, uttered as the tears flowed down his cheeks, that all were welcome in his fold until the time of judgment.

  • Matthew 25:31-46 (which was quoted partially and without complete context)
  • Matthew 13:24-30

And even in the instance of Acts 5 it was an act of God rather than an act of man. Why is it that so many humans seem to feel they can act as God when it comes to the spiritual lives and beliefs of others? Seems to me we tried that approach throughout the dark ages. I’m sure some in the world today would adhere to the belief that those times were more appropriate to spiritual life and would blindly take us back there in spite of the consequences.

(Cfowler) #76

I agree that the Pharisees were trying to debate with Jesus and perhaps catch Him in a “gotcha” question/answer. But, as to the Gospel question, seems to be a simple enough answer, certainly for us today.

(Cfowler) #77

Very true! As if “we” need an outside source to explain it for us. We certainly can’t figure it out ourselves. :roll_eyes: Freedom in Christ is there for believers, and the HS works with each of us in the way that we need.

(James Peterson) #78

Did YOU quote Mat. 25 partially and out of context?

One does NOT make a whip and utterly drive out the uncouth rabble, decrying their unholiness, with “tears flowing down the cheeks.” Sorry. Here is Jesus cleansing the Temple.

No human being can show anyone the door spiritually because salvation is an intensely personal matter between one and God. No third person can break that bond. “My Father, who has given them to Me,” Jesus assures us, “is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.” John 10:29.

However, in our own interaction with others, we are to be VERY selective with the company we keep. Tell me, does a man say of his children, “Whoever they choose as friends, they choose”? Does he not steer them clear of drug dealers, prostitutes, embezzlers, liars and cheaters? There is a VAST difference between ministering to the outcast and keeping company with those who do not share the same values.

Look at the example set by Jesus Christ. Though He reached out to all and sundry, ministering to their needs and seeking to bring hope into their lives, yet of his twelve disciples, for example, he took to Himself, just Peter, James and John. And of the house of Lazarus, it is written, “Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister [Mary] and Lazarus.” John 11:5 This is that Mary who sat at His feet.

1 John 5:21, “Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.


(Johnny Carson) #79

One thing you repeatedly fail to mention is that the rabble you speak of were nothing less than the religious elite and their operatives who were setting themselves up as gateways between the soul and their Savior. Once they were Gone Christ sat down with all comers, even sinners without making demands of them to make any changes in their lives, choosing rather to teach in the hopes that they would see God’s mercy, love, and kindness.

SINNERS! In the temple! Some of them unrepentant! Sitting at the feet of Jesus! Imagine that :slight_smile:

(James Peterson) #80

"But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one." 2 Cor. 5:11

Jesus Christ ministered to all, but ONLY those who shared his life, walked with him. Even of the 12 disciples, just Peter, James and John saw him glorified in transfiguration. And so, a missionary to death row inmates does not marry a death row inmate, but someone who shares the same values. Doesn’t even nature itself teach you that “birds of a feather, flock together”?