Does What We Believe Save Us?

(Allen Shepherd) #121

Where did I say that? I said I will not answer, not for you to shut up: the issues brought up have been discussed ad nauseam. No use going over them again.

But you and anyone else can talk all you want. I will not hinder you.

(Patrick Travis) #122

I repeat, does what we choose not to believe cause us to be lost?

(George Tichy) #123

I have absolutely no respect, none, for people who discriminate against other human beings. Even if some of them (at least one…) calls me “a fool”… :roll_eyes:

(Johnny Carson) #124

How magnanimous. One would never be able to tell without those few words. :blush:

From where and why does such a desire stem? God will prevail regardless of the state of corporate church structures. Is your faith so small that it cannot conceive of a God bigger than the SDA denomination?

(Steve Mga) #125

1st Century Rome
1st Century Greece
EVERYTHING was going along Just Fine until Jesus Christ came.
EVERYTHING was going along Just Fine until Paul brought Christianity to Greece and Rome.
As a New Testament statement so RIGHTLY states – They turned the world upside down.
Christianity COMPLETELY Changed the Social Structure of the then world.
As Paul states, ALL ARE EQUAL. There is no longer Slave, Males, Females, Rich, Poor.
ALL are ONE in Christ. ALL are Equal at the Table of the Lord.
All are Allowed to Receive ALL the Gifts of the Spirit.
In 1 Cor 14 Paul states that the Most Important gift to ask for is the Gift Of Prophecy. The ability to preach the Messages of God, the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
This Gift is available to ALL-- Slaves, Men, Women, Rich, Poor.

A number of persons who comment on Spectrum are AFRAID of 1 Cor 14. It DOES NOT include
the SERVICE OF ORDINATION by Men on Men to function, or to be approved by The Church [the body of Christ]. It does NOT limit the Preaching of the Gospel to just Men, but includes Everyone.
Everyone Included Everyone regardless of XY or XX Chromosomes.
Yes! The Seventh day Adventist hierarchy are AFRAID of 1 Cor 14.

The Breaking down of the 1st Century Social Structure by Christians and Christ was the
MOST Revolutionary Event in Western Civilization and SDAs take no notice of it!!
Actually, some deny that it really occurred.
And, has no impact on Christianity today!


The SDA church is suffering from the influence of monergism , paganism & Calvinism

(George Tichy) #127

YAYKKKK! How can you be part of such a rotten religious group?

Any plans do move onto a higher level of religiosity that conforms to your higher level of expectations? Where would you find such an environment? Please share with us…

How do you feel when interacting with people like us here, most Adventists?

(Johnny Carson) #128

In the broader answer to that question, methinks the reason individuals with a “higher level of expectations” come here is so that they can feel better about themselves by beholding the lowliness of lesser mortals.


Exactly! They are just holier than thou, immature,selfish, arrogant neo-Pharisee tares.
There is absolutely no other conclusion possible…

(George Tichy) #130



Of course. Let the games continue. Playing church.


Most churchgoers are not taught how to be saved.

(Thomas J Zwemer) #133

There is a hymn in the church hymnal Trust and Obey, there is other way—-
Trust means confidence or Faith. Adventism is focused on the obey which is understood to mean compliance rather that follow or doing likewise. Christ promises a yoke that is light not a bond servant. Fred Caddock tells two stories of the transformational power of two women pastors. As does the Gospel story. The woman at the well had no pulpit but she turned an entire village around. Remember that even the Rocks would cry out. Who can still anyone who testifies I know in Whom I have believed and am persuaded that He is able.

(Tim Teichman) #134

Ordination as we practice it is not mentioned in scripture. It did not exist for centuries. It is an invention of the early Roman church that was adopted by Protestantism.

Anyone who wants to make informed arguments regarding what the bible says about ordination should first understand what it means when ordination is mentioned.

What is termed ordination in the bible was the recognition of extant leadership in the early church - was to recognize someone, an elder, who was already in a position of leadership within the church. These elders were not appointed to an office, but were recognized by virtue of their seniority and spiritual service to the church.

This ordination is mentioned in three texts in the bible:

  1. Acts 14:23: Elders were acknowledged in the churches of Galatia.
  2. 1 Timothy 3:1: Paul and Timothy acknowledge elders in Ephesus.
  3. Titus 1:5: Titus is told to recognize elders in Crete.

The word ordain in the original language does not mean to place someone into an office, but instead to recognize / endorse / affirm what is already happening. Like a public blessing.

During the third century this changed and took on an entirely different meaning. It became a formalized Christian rite that produced a caste system of laity and clergy.

In the fourth century the ceremony included symbolic garments and was a solemn ritual. When Constantine make Christianity the religion of choice, church leadership structures were buttressed by political sanction. In this process forms of the Old Testament Priesthood were combined with Greek/Roman hierarchical systems of rule.

The ordination rite was patterned directly after the Roman custom of appointing men to civil office. The entire process, down to the very words spoken, came straight from the Roman civic world.

This type of ordination had no place in the early church, which as a priesthood of believers - of equals. There as no concept of clergy and laity.

These statements are from Pagan Christianity by Frank Viola and George Barna, both self-described devout Christians, and are cited in their book based on the works of various authorities on the early church.

(Johnny Carson) #135

Church members don’t need to be taught how to be saved. They need to learn how to love.

(Cfowler) #136

How would you teach someone on how to be saved?

(Steve Mga) #137

Tim –
Much of what Frank and George describe in their book can be seen played out in
our Seventh day Adventists Local churches and in the Denominational Structure.
AND, as we have seen from various parts of the Adventist World Worldwide,
Ordination is POWER, Ordination is PRIVILEGE, and ORDINATION makes a
person UNTOUCHABLE when they do questionable behavior and activities.

(Frankmer7) #138

As if its some kind of algorithm that they need to learn. Paul said one thing to the Philippian jailor. Jesus something else to Nicodemus. Another to the woman at the well. IOW, the gospel meets people where they are at in their particular situations. It’s relational!

It certainly isn’t salvation by secret knowledge of how to be saved. That sounds gnostic. Kind of what you seem to promote. As John Carson said to you, we need to be taught more how to love. “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.”


@JohnCarson @cfowler


Oh yes…just love…love love

So Jesus said , if you love me, keep my commandmsnts.
Paul said Love is the fulfilling of the law

and the greatest commandments are love God & people.

Yet why so much doctrinal detail then/ Isn’t it soooo simple? Why is there almost 31,000 verses in the bible?

Also, why does Paul go into elaboration/detail in 1 Cor 13 explaining LOVE?

Why don’t pastors just say…“love” and then “our closing hymn is…”


How would you teach someone on how to be saved?

Cooperate with the Holy Spirit.