When a child learns that zebras are not horses, it does not necessitate the banning of zebras. Nor does years of calling zebras horses make them such.
Perhaps Kevin feels threatened by women. Some great leaders in the world have been women, even though they existed in a patriarchal culture.
You see, the effectiveness of women is not in question. In fact there doesnât seem to be any questioning at all. Kevin seems to be a seeker rather than a questioner. ,Seeker of supporting evidence to the answer thatâs already known. To reverse engineer predetermined outcomes using dogma rather than evidence.
This is heavy. Thought-provoking, but true.
Are you saying there might be a sudden increase in transgender members of the Adventist church?
Well ⌠that thought had not crossed my mind as I was referring to one which uses his religious authority (he is no way a medical doctor!) to disrobe them and teach them the true meaning of headship. Yet, it could be that some may see the option, especially in cultures which seek to destroy any hint of objection to prostration before the obelisk.
Trust the Process.
Perhaps we all do it. I think itâs difficult to conceive of an occasion when we look at something without prior bias.
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premise two says trouble began when woman wandered from manâs side. I wonder who that woman was? Genesis 3 and verse 6 says that Adam was with her (Eve).
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He has probably been reading materials from Bill Gothard.
'A Short History of the Headship Doctrine in the Seventh-day Adventist Churchâ
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Seems this should be enough for any SDA traditionalist to back off and accept that WO is correct. If Ellen thought so, and indeed prescribed WO, and the bible is silent on it, then it seems there should be no real need for further discussion.
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I cannot believe what I am reading. I see lots of opinion from Mr. Bachelor but very little scripture and the scripture he is using is out of context. I think the general conference gave mr. Bachelor too much of the mic and maybe they need to take away his global mic.
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unless iâm accidentally overlooking it, i donât see dougâs biggest talking point, which he used on the floor of san antonio, namely that ordained female ministers would lead to gender confusion and contribute to homosexuality in our churchâŚ
i definitely agree that doug has no business with a global mike, at allâŚthe scary thing is that he has so many followers in nadâŚ
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This situation can be easily understood when we consider that Mr. Bachelor belongs to the Whiteist SDA branch, and not to the Christian SDA branch.
It looks like you belong to he latter (as I do too).
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Premise 1 - â Everyone in this room falls into two categories: You are a boy or a girlâa man or a woman. It has been that way since the beginning.'
Arrr, no. What the writer meant to say, I think, is everyone in the room falls into one of two categories. They cannot fall into two categories when the categories are mutually exclusive. Having said that and if that is what Doug said, then obviously he has no idea of what he is talking about. Recent genetic science has proven conclusively the old XX and XY chromosome theory is no longer valid. There are many variants of it many of which result in people who cannot be categorised in the manner he wishes. Clearly mixed sex persons cannot be so categorised. Granted the mix-up is a result of sin.
Premise 2 - Where does the concept of Adam instructing Eve to stay away from the tree come from? I canât find it in Genesis anywhere. In fact, as has already been pointed out, Gen 3:6 clearly states Adam was with Eve when she took of the fruit. Further, what has 'Man, instead of leading his wife, submits to his wife â got to do with the ordination of women?
Premise 3 - While that may be true, it is a very long stretch to attempt to correlate to the ordination of women. If in fact Doug wants to do so then it is equally appropriate to make it correlate to the ordination of men.
Premise 4 - True, but again what does that have to do with the ordination of women? Absolutely nothing.
Premise 5 - At no point in time has history ever been altered. it is not possible to alter history. What has happened has happened and nothing will change that. â⌠final authority was to rest solely with husbands and men pastors âŚâ Absolute rubbish. The final authority is in fact God himself.
Premise 6 - Complete conjecture and personal opinion which has no place in a supposedly Biblical discussion.
Premise 7 - And the relevance is? So women fill a role because there is nobody else to do so. What makes that a premise for blocking ordination of women?
Premise 8 - And the relevance is? Nobody denies that but it is not a legitimate argument for not ordaining women.
Premise 9 - Laughable at best; ludicrous at worst. So what?
Premise 10 - Does Doug propose to be able to speak for the 51% of students? Has he actually discussed the matter with them? Maybe, just maybe, 51% of students want to be in the seminary because they felt called to do so. Why can a male be called but not a woman? Very, very judgemental and disappointing from a man who proposes to be a preacher of godâs grace.
Premise 11 - Where does it make such a statement? In fact I cannot find a statement anywhere in the Bible that says men should be ordained.
Premise 12 - âWomen tend to communicate more effectively than menâ Surely that is a very strong argument why women should be recognisd as teachers and preachers and ordained. ââŚin discussions women will often bring up random, unrelated topicsâŚâ Oh, my goodness. I donât know whether I have ever read such a ridiculous statement anywhere. From some of the premise statements Iâd think Doug suffers the same malady. âMen on average score five points higher on an IQ testâ - so what? What is the relevance? ââŚmen are better suited for combatâŚâ Does that mean you have to be combative to be ordained. Iâve known some pretty combative women in my time. 'Women excel in languageâŚâ Youâve noticed! Then surely they should be the pastors and teachers as they can get across concepts in a more understandable way. But doesnât this contradict the flights into random and off topic statement? Oh, and what does the ability of men to tolerate pain have to do with the matter or the ability to rotate objects in their brain? Desperation I think.
Premise 13 - Agreed so what is the point Doug is trying to get across? It certainly has nothing to do with ordination of women.
Premise 14 - Of course they can, and in some instances better. So what is the relevance?
Premise 15 - Oh, really. How because I cannot find one statement anywhere in the Bible where god says âdo likewiseâ relative to the ordination of men, let alone women. Sure you will find in Acts the story of the âlaying on of handsâ when deacons were appointed, but there is NO statement anybody else should do so. It is nothing more than a description of what they did. And yes, you will find the attributes an elder should have ad the fact they were âordainedâ BUT you will not find anywhere a statement that all churches should do the same. Yes, you will find the story of the Levites and particularly Aaron and sons being ordained, but again there is no âdo likewiseâ statement. â⌠Anyone who does not come to the conclusion âŚâ Oh, really? In other words if you donât agree with me then you are a hoop jumper. But, Mr Batchelor, you seem to be creating a lot of hoops and jumping through them very well.
Premise 16 - Again, what is the point being made, and what does it have to do with ordination of women?
Premise 17 - 'According to I Corinthians 11:3, the head of every man is Christ and the head of every woman is man; the head of Christ is God. These are really plain statementsâŚâ How true can you get? But what is the relevance of he truth in this quote to the ordination of women?
Premise 18 - The point and the relevance to the topic being?
Premise 19 - 'If you spend too long on plainly reading the Bible, pretty soon itâs not going to mean what it says anymoreâŚâ Now this one is a real doozy. I thought the whole idea of bible study WAS to plainly red the bible. What is the proposed alternative? Only ordained men interpret the Bible? I thought that had been tried elsewhere and failed.
Premise 20 - âThe Church is an extension of the familyâŚâ Is it now? I thought the church was the bride of Christ. That makes for an interesting dichotomy.
Premise 21 - â⌠God does not wink at gender roles because they derive from the Garden of Eden âŚâ I kind of expect in the garden of Eden there were no gender roles. thought is a previous premise it was suggested the gender roles came abut because of the fall which would intimate they didnât exist prior to that unfortunate event.
Premise 22 & 23 - â⌠Paul was referring to womenâs fault-finding and attempts to usurp authority over men in churchesâŚâ Of course he was, but any woman worthy of ordination will not exhibit those characters so what is the relevance?
Premise 24 - Relevance to ordination of women being?
Premise 25 - No sense whatsoever so why raise it?
Premise 26 - Well, as has been proven by other commenters this is disproven so I shanât comment further. Oh, Doug, I suggest you check facts before making categorical statements.
Premise 27 - Absolutely none whatsoever so why bring it up? But it seems to contradict with the following statement found on the Amazing Facts web site - âWithin the church, women may teach women and children. With men in the church, women should discuss spiritual matters in a manner that informs but is not authoritative. This does not mean that a man cannot learn from a womanâs conduct or from a conversation with a woman and apply what he learns to his life. Rather, what it means is that the womanâs purpose in talking with a man is not to instruct him as a leader would.â
Premise 28 - â⌠God draws the line is here: Women cannot be ordained as pastors or eldersâŚâ So far Doug hasnât proven that.
As far as I am concerned, the whole diatribe comes across as a being from a man who is severely threatened by women. But like many topics the extreme proponents of either side of the argument can an will only accept what they want to accept based on their pre-existing philosophy. By Dougâs own admission, he had a mother heavily involved in the womenâs movement and I strongly suspect he has been scared by that experience. So much so he has taken the extreme opposite point of view and cannot see the lack of logic to his argument.
It is a pity a man for whom I had considerable respect has destroyed that respect by his own mouth.
As for me and my house, I am yet to be convinced there is a weak argument men should be ordained, let alone women. As I indicated above, I can find no âdo likewiseâ injunction concerning ordination of men anywhere in the Bible nor has any ordained minister I have asked about it. As stated, one can find descriptions of what was done at a particular time and place but none of those descriptions are followed by a âdo likewiseâ. At the last supper, Christ was very clear about the ceremony - we were to follow that example until he comes. He has not been so clear regarding ordination as a continuing ceremony.
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The truly laughable part of #9, is that semen literally means âseedâ, nothing gender specific. Years ago seminary also meant, a school specifically for the education of young women.
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Why do Adventist women take so much abuse from male leaders in the Church? Perhaps the men, such as Batchelor, quote the âInerrantâ bible passages supporting their point of view? A similar thing situation took place in the 20th century when men sought to deny women the right to vote on grounds that they were inferior. Women demonstrated against this and other dumb-down tactics but such actions are NOT what I am advocating. Matters came to a head when female intellectuals exploded the menâs ARGUMENTS by giv ing an alternative view of the progress of humankind based on sound anthropology. The men were shut up and tomorrow(8/11) we shall see a woman become the single most powerful person on the planet.
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I am reading this in November 2016! I am so sorry to see that you were right 2,5 years ago!!!
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This is how TRUE prophecy works⌠LOL