Ellen G. BIV

I’ve also noted deemphasis on both the IJ and the unambiguous expectation in the prophetic writings that it was move on to the living in the life-time of that generation.
I’ve studied the IJ subject particularly. But this might not be the place to argue it. For transparency and out of respect for you and your argument, I’ll declare that my research finds that she was correct. It’s a topic worth studying and downplaying it is not in good faith because it was a significant part of her message. I don’t accept that one can respect her prophetic ministry and downplay the IJ bits.

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Agreed, sanctification is a work of Holy Spirit. But it is not performed on passive subjects. One has to want it like “hid treasure”, “the violent take it by force”. “Sanctify them by your truth. Your word is truth”. “Your word I have hidden in my heart, That I might not sin against You.”
This sounds like Truth must be actively received and then it acts like an electrical relay to switch on the high current of the Spirit to do the needed work.
I think we’re agreed, at least, I hope so.

By this, you strengthen my argument. She wrote from a definite geographic location and very narrow window of time (she’s been dead far longer than the years of her ministry) and yet her works continue to resonate globally; Africa, South America, the Caribbean, and beyond.

“It also requires a lot imagination.” Not so hard to a generation not raised with intense TV and YouTube in their early years. Your argument attacks the wrong target.
In any case some brains are more visual than others and so it is expected that imagination will not tax minds alike.

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So I went to Strong and found that both, the OT and NT, have the same meanings for “sanctify” - make holy - set apart - dedicated. If you look up “holy”, it too is, set apart - dedicated - moral quality.

We can’t make ourselves “holy” no matter how many rules we follow - even the 10 commandments. It’s not a matter of checking off behaviors, when added up = sanctified. Sanctification comes with experience with God, and is mostly undetectable by ourselves. If we’re checking off successes in sanctification, we’re on the wrong path - just a narcissistic accomplishment.

All the minutia dealt with in most of the EGW books are cultural and personal, tied to a specific time and place. When it comes to interpreting the Bible, it, too, depends on context of the times it was written; but also, who is reading it, and with what background. That sort of “interpretation” is best left to the HS. If Ellen White “is the lesser light”, why not go the source itself - to the same light that supposedly fed her, will give you and me what we need to hear, and how we’re to understand. If we can’t rely on that, then we’re connected to the wrong light and the whole thing is hopeless.

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The things you say are true. I agree with it all. In answer to your question “why not go to the source itself” I will say that as a general rule, I have found that all of supporters, skeptics and opponents of Ellen’s ministry lose their bearings rather easily. My tentative assessment of the phenomenon leads to the suspicion that the root cause of the misunderstanding, misapprehensions and misgivings is lack of appreciation of Moses’ command:
Deuteronomy 30:16 KJV
[16] In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

It is crucial to understand the difference between these 5 concepts:

  1. Love for God
  2. Following Jesus
  3. Ten Commandments
  4. Principles
  5. Judgements (private & corporate).

Anyone applying some judgement (5) that God delivered through Sister Ellen without contextualizing it in reference to 1-4 gets weird results and many people rightfully suspect something improper —even though they might fail to articulate exactly where the disconnect lies.
There’s a lot to say on this. But, I hope to have given a brief answer to your question.

Now, just keep factoring it all down to the two commandments Jesus gave, and we have the crux of the matter. We are all narcissists, looking after #1, so we know what He meant. The harder we try to save our own skin, the farther we get from anything that resembles love of neighbor.

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I find the syntax here difficult to understand and while I might otherwise ask for clarification, your other, unqualified assertion that you’ve studied EGW’s attempt to provide a supernatural explanation for the The Great Disappointment by creating the IJ scenario out of whole cloth and “declared” it to be “correct” leads me to believe that you and I are miles apart, philosophically, and that further discussion between us is a waste of time.

Therefore, I’ll assent to Spectrum’s suggestion that others be encouraged to weigh in as I bow out.

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Can’t follow Jesus and ignore Moses. The distinction I outlined is not trivial. The two commandments are the first two points. Might as well remain Protestant then. Adventists move from the milk to solid food (steps 3-5) without skipping over 1-2. It’s addition, not substitution.

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The two commandments Jesus focused on (Love God and love neighbor as self) covers the rest. The 10 commandments are specification of the two.

There is way more to them than what is said in the 10. That’s where the Spirit comes in to impress on each individually how it relates to them and their behavior. Principles also stem from the initial two “great commandments”.

As for Moses - I assume you mean the !0 Commandments. As I said, these are only 10 that are specific to the former slaves who had to be taught how to be free, in order to form their own society. Further on, when Jesus came to re-introduce God as “Father” to he Jews and the rest of the world, God communicates through Jesus, which is what was pictured on the Mount of Transfiguration. There, Jesus is seen in discussion with Moses and Elijah, Moses representing the LAW; and Elijah representing the PROPHETS. When Moses and Elijah disappeared, a voice declared “This is my Son, listen to Him”. Jesus is now the spokesman of both, the law, and the prophets. This coupled with Hebrews 1, makes it clear that the OC, as it was the basis of worshipping God, is no longer the basis, as our relationship to God is, as Father - the same as it was for Jesus, our elder Brother.

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How about a Rockwell hardness test? :slightly_smiling_face:

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Wait a sec, HA!

I’ll go get my durometer!!!

You are exactly why I made this piece. Thank you so much for proving my point so clearly.

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In 1972 I stayed with a SDA pastor in Germany. I asked him about EGW and he brushed her off, saying that in Europe she had very little influence and few of her books were available. She was mostly a US and California influence.

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I’m starting to get that from the the good doctor’s comments.

I also understand California “Adventists” now play a little “fast and loose” with her stuff.

But that’s not how things were for an SDA kids on The Right Coast of the USA when I was growing up, just as is isn’t the case for some of the more verbose commenters here at Spectrum!!!

“Which link to suspect” cannot be answered by the hardness test unless one tests each link. But then, one would have introduced a tiny stress concentrator to each link. Why is that smart?

Dear Sirje,
You have not understood my reply about the five concepts. That is what I referred to when I said “Moses”. I sincerely and humbly ask you to prayerfully reflect on the reply about the 5 concepts. We are agreed on so many things, yet you ate not building on all that you already know. Be brave. Go further. Please?

I appreciate your sincerity. I’m having a hard time seeing this from your perspective. When it comes to the five concepts i see them in a different order - something like making an outline with Roman numerals: We start with the two commandments; and everything else come under the two.

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Hmmmm. Obviously my analogy isn’t useful. so I’ll be more direct.

EGW declared that every thought she wrote was from God. That’s incredibly important if true. If it’s not true, it’s destructive to believe it.

So I propose that the most efficient way to evaluate her claims for her writings is to read the best arguments against, then those against the against. As soon as possible.

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Perfectly understood. That is my take too. This is where ‘spirit of prophecy’ zealots have done enormous damage. They have taken judgements (and often private judgements that the Spirit would have revealed to another person —not even to themselves) and placed them above considerations 1-4 AND wanted to make them of universal application to the entire community. This is about the most extreme. Then there is a spectrum of other errors in between. For this reason I do not give a hard time to people who doubt the ministry of Ellen White but sympathize at times (though I never excuse that).
The work of God in our salvation is too important. It requires the full engagement of all our minds and heart. All critical thinking of the mind and all the affections of the heart.

Anyone who fails in step 1 (love for God) has no business talking about following Jesus and loving one’s neighbour (step 2) because that love will be corrupted by human philosophy (e.g. we are enslaving these people to civilize them) and no business making mention of the Ten Commandments (3), our health message and other principles (4) let alone specific judgements (5). The logic applies throughout because these are hierarchical. The Two Great Commandments (1,2) are the indisputable starting blocks.

I’m the better for engaging with you. Thanks.

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Thank you for not remaining silent! Thank you for pointing out a real problem in institutionalized Adventism. I believe Ellen White has many good things to say about Jesus- Steps to Christ and Desire of Ages are beautiful books that have blessed my relationship with the Lord. But believing she was a prophet is not necessary for salvation. Our church is big on religious liberty and having the right to choose your way to worship, yet I have seen (and experienced) a pastor refuse to baptize a woman until she takes her wedding ring off, not being allowed to enter a church because I was wearing a sleeveless dress, or other requirements to conform based on archaic rules exaggerated and misinterpreted by people under the guise of EGW and the institutionalized church. We have done a disservice to those who don’t fit in or comply with our hundreds of rules- are we much different than the Pharisees of Jesus’ day? We have our own lingo, our own food, and have used Ellen White as a spotlight to point out others’ “sins”, which has left us with feelings of never being good enough for God. Our focus has come off of Jesus, and onto works and making us compete for our place in heaven- I’m better than so an so, because I don’t go to movies. Harrison, we owe you an apology for hitting you over the head with her books! Salvation is not earned by belonging to the right church or keeping all these rules. Churches are hospitals for sinners and we need to band together and help each other. John 3:17 says- “God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world, through Him, might be saved.” Jesus wants to heal us and restore us to unity with Him. We are all sinners in need of a savior! We need to learn to help each other and get along!

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