Your response seems a bit long to prove you’re not silly.
I’ll suggest to him that he dumb it down a bit for your benefit.
Well you obviously didn’t understand the definition of “silly” so any shorter response would require using only four letter words….
As Bertrand Russell once wrote, “It is always difficult to decide on how to respond to people whose ethos is so alien and, in fact, repellent to one’s own.”
I think what bothers me most is not your animosity towards Adventism, but the pride and arrogance with which you wield your sword. Not sure if it’s careless or callous—maybe both.
So you think he needs your help? Seriously?
You are aware that Bertrand Russell was an ardent advocate for atheism and that the ethos of Adventism would have almost certainly been repellent to him, right?
I refuse to be ashamed or repentant for how I feel about having survived the pride and arrogance of my Adventist upbringing.
Given your repellent ethos, I’m fairly certain you’ve feigned being ambivalent in the matter and have already decided that the answer is “both”.
Now, I know that’s a lot of words, and some of them are kinda big, but is there anymore “victim blaming” you’d like to do?
Today, Adventism is in a great crisis for its very existence. Unless correct action is taken, the Advent Movement will continue to collapse into theological irrelevance, having no role to play in last day events whatsoever. The fate of Adventism is really what is up for debate, not just Ellen White.
While it is long past time to deal honestly with Ellen White, there should be no doubt that the WHITE ESTATE is guilty of promoting a massive publishing fraud about Ellen White all these years. And it is this long running fraud that needs to be specifically confronted, exposed, and finally corrected.
Unless this is done, no amount of meetings or conferences will make any difference. The White Estate (which is owned and controlled by the Denomination) must confess and repent. No more games and double-talk. They know what they have done, and unless they fully confess and correct the record, (including editing most all of their books), neither Ellen White nor the Advent Movement can be rehabilitated.
I worked in both the Archives and White Estate for two years and discovered that the White Estate was hiding thousands of documents about the 1888 debates, which told a very different story about her view of the Gospel. It was a stunning discovery that the top leaders (including President Wilson) knew about in 1979. But the church went ahead with Glacier View and the evil persecution of Dr. Ford anyway.
The Denomination has never told the truth about 1888 and the huge fight between Ellen White and Uriah Smith, which was about the Gospel and the IJ. More than that, they fabricated Ellen Whites views about that debate, even as they manipulated Ellen White to the point of making her say the opposite of what she promoted during and after 1888. THIS is the core of the Ellen White problem. The White Estate is guilty of a massive publishing fraud.
Unless this long running fraud IN THE WHITE ESTATE is exposed, repudiated and corrected, neither Ellen White nor SDA theology can be salvaged, much less made relevant in the 21st century.
Let everyone understand: the problem is first and foremost the White Estate. They have acted in a very dishonest and unlawful manner. But this fraud must be corrected so that everyone can understand the real Ellen White, instead of embracing the White Estate’s many manipulations and fabrications.
There is no chance that Ellen White wanted her writings about 1888 hidden from the Denomination, much less so the Takoma Park leaders could promote Uriah Smith’s legalism, (which was presented to the church as if it was from Ellen White). This was no accident. They knew better. Ellen White was abused and misused by the White Estate, which is why the public thinks she is a legalistic fraud. Shame on the White Estate. They are the problem.
Let everyone understand: This outrageous fraud IN THE WHITE ESTATE is the source for most of the confusion about Ellen White, the Gospel and the IJ, which has overwhelmed the church, leaving it disoriented and confused. This is the fault of the White Estate, not Ellen White.
Bruce the Silly???
, first it was @ajshep calling us “fools,” and now you are getting the “silly” too? Enjoy the new adjective Bruce.
Well… I don’t think it will be easy to exonerate her either.
I consider these attempts to insult me both a validation of my conclusions in these matters as well as an indictment and conviction of the people who make such accusations.
You know, that thing Jesus said about how people are judged according to their judgments of others!?!?
I just started reading The White Estate Fraud and have no doubt that they have been complicit in perpetrating the glowing myths about EGW.
I’m also aware that this started back when she was a teenager and may have been the brainchild of her husband and then her son Willie.
But to say that she, personally, has no culpability in this travesty is simply an untenable position in my opinion.
Yes, because we know that when someone doesn’t have an answer they resort to name calling.
There is nothing more dangerous to an entrenched ideology than a fully informed freethinker.
George, this is not about what is “easy,” but about what is correct and true. The “easy” way has already been tried and it has led to diaster for Adventism.
The Takoma Park Denomination just hid and manipulated Ellen White’s writings, making them say whatever they wanted her to say, including about 1888. This is why the White Estate was designed like a fortress to keep everyone out so that they could censor and manipulate Ellen White’s writings at will. It was “easy,” so long as no one unloyal entered the vaults to examine what was taking place. It worked for a very long time, until it didn’t in 1979.
This massive publishing fraud in Takoma Park, while costing $$ millions to pull off, seemed like a better (easier) option then telling the truth, because the truth about 1888 was very upsetting and paradigm shifting, even divisive and dangerous for SDAs as it had started a religious civil war in Battle Creek that has never been correctly understood, much less resolved to this day.
The 1888 debates led, not only to Canrights declaration of war against Ellen White, but to the hostile takeover of Battle Creek by Kellogg that had so tramitized the leaders, chasing them to Takoma Park. The modern SDA leaders wanted nothing to do with relitigating 1888. So they hid the record and manufactured a fictionalized and sanitized version in its place. By the early 1970’s Froom tried to keep this 1888 fraud alive with his tome, Movement of destiny, which turned out to be deliberate misdirection and fraud. It even made matters worse because his legalistic views led directly to Glacier View and an ongoing schism that will be fatal unless resolved.
What was an “easy” way to deal with Ellen White had now turned into chaos and diaster. But yet, the White Estate still refuses to confess what they have done, much less correct the record. They plan to ignore the fact that they have been caught in criminal behavior and just pretend all is well. This is why a heirarchy is not a Gospel doctrine. It always go corrupt and this is what has happened long ago with the SDAs. They are controlled by an evil, dishonest, anti-Gospel hierarchy, which must be removed in order for Adventism to go forward.
Luke 22:26 “But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant.
There is a price to pay for such evil, unlawful, deception and the present crisis is well deserved. However, once the record about Ellen White is corrected and the real history of the 1888 debate made public, then and only then will the Adventist Community be able to make a fair and proper assessment of Ellen White. It is pointless to debate myths and make judgments about manipulated and fictionalized history. Both the critics and the apologists will have to rethink everything once they see the corrected record. But until then, they are both making fools of themselves without knowing it, thanks to the massive fraud in the White Estate.
No wonder Adventism is confused, divided, and disoriented. How can it not be? The White Estate has so misled and confused everyone, including themselves, that the vast record must be corrected so that an honest discussion, based on the facts can take place. When this cover up is corrected, all will see that what happened at Glacier View was very wrong. Ellen White would have supported Dr. Ford’s position on the Gospel and the IJ. Which is why the real record of 1888 is still hidden.
To tell the truth about 1888 today, is to show that Glacier View and the persacution of Dr. Ford was very wrong and against the Gospel as well as against Ellen White’s post 188 view of SDA theology. So there are no plans by the Denomination to repent. They still pretend that Dr. Ford was wrong, when they are the foolish and worthless shepherds. This is not going to end well for the leaders, who have been informed of this fraud and have chosen to look the other way.
Unless EGW had renounced all of her pre-1888 writings,-particularly the Testimonies which IMO are about as Christian as a visit to a fortune teller or palm reader-the critic’s essentially negative evaluations of her work are valid.
This while the apologists, regardless of the machinations of the post-1888 world, have yet to explain how “falling out” in front of a live audience does anything to prove that what one says upon awakening is necessarily a message from god.
IOW, Mrs. White’s “about face” on the faith v. works question (which everyone accepts, on some level, did happen) is meaningless given that it did nothing to change what she had done, and continued to do until she became demented. That is, her new-found faith in faith was apparently lip service to a doctrinal issue and, based on the evidence we have, did nothing to change what she did, or her “works”.
It seems faith in the absence of facts, and which is contrary to or requires the suspension of logic and which doesn’t change what one does, is not, in and of itself, a virtue.
Tom, I wish you could tell us more about the "Truth about 1888."Why don’t you post a short version here so that we can at least learn what it is about. The core of the issue.
This chat will close in 2 days though. (The Spectrum trick to restrict conversations…)
Re Des Ford, I fully agree. I believe he was the last call for this Church to correct the travesti and make things straight. But the Church chose to continue being dishonest to its members instead, and made things still worse taking it to the shameful Glacier View fiasco. From bad to worse, from horrible to more horrible.
As many others before him, Des was and still is right. He tried to help the Church, but the Church refused. We can see why the current chaos is happening. The Wilsons have been a true disgrace to this Denomination.
I see the apologists having to rethink their positions, but the critics? We the critics base our critic on what EGW wrote and did. I can’t see how that can be changed. It is what it is.
It seems that a lot of effort, finagling, promoting, reengineering, etc. has to be constantly done to get people on board with such a wonderful gift as “the Spirit of Prophecy”. I think the product is faulty.
i can’t imagine egw supporting Ford or his position on the Gospel and IJ…Ford’s position is diametrically opposed, not only to her own writings, but to vast sections of the Bible…that’s actually why he was sacked…
Wrong. He was sacked because individuals did not like him or his popularity. Dr Ford actually did not oppose EGW. He opposed an biblically unsupported doctrine of IJ.
I suggest that you go and educate yourself on GV and Dr Ford’s position and not just take the Beautiful Statements put out by the church. Take the time to listen/watch the GV series by SDAQ&A.