Ellen White Letter Discovered at Pacific Union College; Experts Confirm Authenticity

I am not sure yet if I like critical thinking. Can you believe it??? … :roll_eyes: :sunglasses:

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Critical Thinking helps us to more clearly define the critical questions so as to divide the important from the unnecessary.

A Critical Spirit, on the other hand, helps us seek out and amplify the weaknesses of others.

I sometimes fall into the pit of the second while trying to pursue the value of the first.

How about you?

I am going to take a chance at responding to you, although it seems, from some of your other responses, that you, like your friends, are adept at “pot calling the kettle black.” (To make this clear, I have attempted to deal in objective matters while responders have attempted to drag the discussion into the realm of the subjective. If I find that you prefer to drag the discussion into the realm of the subjective as well, I will step away from you as well.)

What is the basis for your appraisal that Ellen White was guilty of plagiary? In other words, (a) What is your definition of plagiarism? and (b) What research on this topic have you done or whose research are you citing?

Frank, What is your standard for opulence?

My mom has a nurse, a seamstress, a cook, and someone who cares for her house. She has no responsibility to write columns for the denomination, no responsibility to provide guidance or encouragement for new ministries in various parts of the world.

Does she live in opulence?

This is sort of statement / assertion that is driving me from the church. Beyond its presumptiveness, I don’t have an idea of what you’re actually referring to. IMO it only harms your ability to get your point across.

It’s common knowledge. Or I thought it was. I learned this over time and more recently from a good friend who himself has studied Ellen copiously and has nothing much positive to say about her. I accept his findings as accurate.

I don’t have my own definition of plagiarism - just the standard meaning:


cincerityKim Green


Nov '15

Her sister [Elizabeth] married Reuben Bangs, a grocer by trade, and remained a member of the Methodist Church the rest of her life. I haven’t discovered any direct quotes as to what Elizabeth thought about Ellen’s gift but obviously it did not persuade her to become an SDA. Perhaps others here have come across something that would address this issue directly.

The third-oldest sister of Ellen White, Mary married Samuel Foss, a farmer, in 1842. They settled in Poland, Maine, and later West Minot, Maine. Samuel’s brother, Hazen Little Foss, on hearing Ellen relate her early visions in 1845, disclosed that he had received almost identical visions but had refused to relate them publicly, for which he felt condemned.

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60 acres, orchards, which is far more than a garden, and a full, on call, household staff is opulence, no matter how one tries to spin it. How many people live like this? The upper 1%, or 1/10 of 1%? Seriously? This needs to be spelled out? Writing this as we’re cleaning our house and doing our laundry ourselves today, because our lives are also filled with professional responsibilities and we can’t afford hired help…


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Frank, you didn’t answer my question.

So, apparently, you are happy to use a modern nebulous definition in wikipedia to define plagiarism. The footnotes upon which this definition is based says:

“use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one’s own original work”

“The action or practice of taking someone else’s work, idea, etc., and passing it off as one’s own; literary theft.”

Now, to the second question. What research on this topic have you done or whose research are you citing?

Your mother isn’t the issue, Kevin. What I outlined as a standard of living is. EGW lived in what I outlined at Elmshaven. Address that please, without saying that 60 acres and a fruit orchard with farmhands is a garden…


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Is my mother living in opulence–even if I added sixty acres of orchards?

This is nonsensical at this point. Stick to EGW and compare her Elmshaven set up with the general population of her time or of this. Where does that fall on the scale of affluence? Answer this please.



You set the standard. I am making a comparison.

Based on the standard that you set, if I added 60 acres of orchard to my mom’s living situation, is she living in opulence?

It is a simple, straightforward question.

Unless you can speak to EGW’s situation on its own terms, without injecting your mother and a hypothetical into the discussion, we’re done. It simply seems that your bias and defense of her at all costs prohibits you from seeing or even admitting what’s plain to the rest of us.



I am testing your standard of opulence. Are you unwilling to put it to a test?


Dictionary result for opulence



  1. great wealth or luxuriousness.

“rooms of spectacular opulence”

I’ve made plain that her standard of living was far beyond the norm. Instead of trying to catch me in semantics and choice of adjectives, how about a different descriptor? How about top 1%? How about affluent? That make it clear? Was it??


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Enjoy yourself, Kevin. Blessings to you.


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Kevin, aren’t you a pastor? It would seem that there would be far more important issues and topics to discuss as a Christian pastor. Your “dog with a bone” approach is beyond unbecoming for anyone, much less a minister of the Good News.


You have offered me assertions. Look at “opulence” in the Victorian era and compare that with Elmshaven.

Ellen White’s house is quite utilitarian. Ellen White lived at Elmshaven from 1900, when she was 73, until her death at age 87 in 1915. The house and gardens was sufficient for her needs and the needs of what was accomplished in her home. It was essentially a retirement home, though Ellen White was quite active during these years, and, as has been pointed out, her home was an official stopping place for denominational leaders.

As to the acreage of “Elmshaven”:

“The property included three acres (1.2 hectares) of fruit orchards … and five acres (two hectares) of grapes” (in the Ellen G. White Encyclopedia).