End-Time Events and the Last Generation: An Interview with Dr. George Knight


#184

Your response reads very duplicitous. @kevindpaulson, in that sinless obedience (biblical promise) aka … someone reaching “such a state” is achievable (and this is where the multilayered descriptive of “perfection” comes into play. Is it a state of “acceptance” on God’s behalf, a gift we accept (justification and/or sanctification), or some “equated grace state” because we achieve… to me they are at odds. Honor, fealty, respect, worship, admiration, come into play… perfection could ONLY be a byproduct, never a goal.

Be ye therefore … perfect to me means … whole, in commitment, purpose, motivation. I choose the leave the results with God (He is the author and finisher of my faith).

I don’t think you can have it both ways… An apple tree bears fruit BECAUSE it is an apple tree… NOT “just in order to be an apple tree”… one of the by products of a relationship with Jesus IS “assurance”… in that perfection could be a fruit (depending on how you classify “perfection”).

Also perfection is “relative”… the closer I fellowship with God, the more perfect He becomes, and the more imperfect I seem. The SDA church is very long in majoring on the minor issues and minoring on the major issues. I applaud your belief that you consider achievement “perfection worthy”… God’s blood cleanses… I cannot cleanse myself by reaching any state of partial and/or full perfection.

Since God, having provided a way in holiest, a throne of grace from which to obtain mercy, How could I continue to grow in grace and knowledge, in Him, having “achieved”.

Please spare me the “living without a mediator”… that has to do with what God is doing IN us… not what state we have achieved. I’ve been sold the “bait n switch” on that one several times…

with kind regards,


(b l d) #185

Please spare me the “living without a mediator”… that has to do with what God is doing IN us… not what state we have achieved.

Definition of Mediator

One who mediates; especially, one who interposes between parties at variance for the purpose of reconciling them; hence, an intercessor.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  • 1 Tim. ii. 5.

Jesus is the “go between” God and man (humans). Because of the awfulness of sin we lost a way of communicating with God, Jesus became the means for us to communicate with the Heavenly Father.

I do not see or understand what you mean when you say "that has to do with what God is doing IN us"


(Tim Teichman) #186

Yes, and also that he mother miraculously conceived Mary, so Mary was literally a daughter of God. And yet most Protestants reject both of those claims.


(Kevin Paulson) #187

Growth toward perfection of character is certainly progressive; the Bible is clear that greater levels of achievement are both possible and necessary as greater light is received (Prov. 4:18; Luke 12:48; II Peter 3:18). God both expects greater advancement as greater light shines on our pathway, and winks at the times of our ignorance (Acts 17:30; James 4:17).

We need to beware of making illustrations “stand on all fours,” as the saying goes. Apple tress do indeed produce apples naturally, as grapevines produce grapes naturally (John 15:1). But these illustrations, like other Biblical illustrations, only explain a certain aspect of the gospel message—in this case, the natural desire of the renewed heart to please God. But the necessity of proactive effort in the struggle for perfect holiness is illustrated in other parables Jesus told, such as the stories of the hidden treasure and the pearl of great price (Matt. 13:44-46), in which one must sell everything in order to obtain the eternal reward.

So far as the tension between growth and achievement is concerned, let’s remember that Jesus Himself, sinlessly perfect by any measure, nevertheless experienced spiritual growth. This is why the Bible states that He “increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man” (Luke 2:52). Ellen White, commenting on this verse, declares that “Jesus, considered as a man, was perfect, yet He grew in grace” (1T 339-340).

Even in eternity, Ellen White tells us that the sinless saints will continue to grow spiritually:

“It is your work to advance toward perfection, making constant improvement, until at last you are pronounced worthy to receive immortal life. And even then the work of progression will not cease, but will continue throughout eternity” (IHP 186).


(Kevin Paulson) #188

But let’s be clear about two things, in light of what you’ve written here.

First, the eradication of sin on earth as a whole will not be complete till the destruction of the wicked at the end of the millennium. However, the eradication of sin in the lives of God’s people must take place in advance of the second coming, as such Bible verses as II Peter 3:10-14 and I John 3:2-3 make clear. Ellen White echoes these verses in such statements as the following:

“When He comes, He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our characters, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. . . . The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation” (2T 355).

Second, regarding the completion of the atonement, that in fact does not take place till the destruction of Satan and his followers in the fires of hell. Remember that the scapegoat itself makes atonement, according to the Bible (Lev. 16:10). Contrary to the accusations of mainstream evangelicals as well as former Adventists, this doesn’t make Satan our sin-bearer. Rather, it simply means that only when the originator of evil is finally destroyed can final at-one-ment (reconciliation) between God and humanity occur, and Eden lost at last become Eden restored.


(Kevin Paulson) #189

Noah had sex with his daughters?? The drunk part is Biblical (Gen. 9:21); where do you find the other part? Are you perhaps confusing Noah with Lot (Gen. 19:32-38)?

Let’s also be clear that Noah was described as perfect while he was warning the world of coming judgment (Gen. 6:9; 7:1), not while he was lying naked and drunk. Perfection of character, like Peter’s walking on the waves of Galilee, is a moment-by-moment affair, not a once-for-all affair. We can be perfect at one moment, yet lose our grasp on Jesus the next and lose that perfection. This is why Ellen White says that unless we are connected with Christ “moment by moment, we shall be overcome” by Satan (DA 324).


(Tim Teichman) #190

Yes, oops.

Well by that measure we can all be perfect now and then. No need for Jesus or God.

I never liked that sort of thing from the time I was a small child. Still don’t. It does not ring either true or fair in any way, or particularly biblical.


(le vieux) #191

No it’s not. That’s the position of the RCC, not Protestants. And it did not become official church doctrine until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in his papal bull Ineffabilis Deus.


(Kade Wilkinson) #192

No, this simply is not true. The Roman doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, to which you refer, is newer than the Reformation, and was introduced in 1869.


(Kade Wilkinson) #193

Mary has been recognized as “Our All-holy, immaculate, most blessed and glorified Lady, the Theotokos and Ever-Virgin Mary” by the Orthodox church since long before the RCC ever existed. The Third Ecumenical Council upheld this title in 431, over 500 years before the RCC began. And of course the quote I provided earlier from Hippolytus also shows that your assertion is bunk.


(Tim Teichman) #194

I didn’t state when it was introduced. Only what is taught. What is your point in all this? Are you defending a particular position? I can’t tell.


(George Tichy) #195

The UNITY meetings was supposed to last only one hour. And it did. But after that they could not agree on who should leave the room first, second, third… It took the two hours to compromise on who should be the first…


(George Tichy) #196

The question that make the LGTarians jump out of any conversation!!! If they tried to answer, it would be self-incriminating. Therefore, they just run away!

LGTarian%20running%20away


(George Tichy) #197

Those LGTarians should have lived a few years BC. They would have spared all that ordeal that Christ had to go through, including the Cross :roll_eyes: :roll_eyes: .
Why did they come so late in time??? :thinking:


(le vieux) #198

Look, you may think your resources are more accurate than mine; I really don’t care, but if so, it’s the resource that’s “bunk,” not my assertion. Whatever, this is Spectrum; let the stones fly. I’m just curious as to how long it will take for a certain individual to pipe up with his false claims about certain events of the past here at Spectrum.


(Kade Wilkinson) #199

Tim,

You claimed that it was a “standard Christian teaching” that “Jesus was and always will be the only sinless human to have lived”

I pointed out that this is not a standard Christian teaching, but an innovation that was unheard of for 3/4ths of the church’s history:

You then claimed that the doctrine of the immaculate conception was also universal for the first 3/4 of the Christian era:

This is why I pointed out that the doctrine of the immaculate conception is an innovation, introduced in 1869.

You claimed that it is a “standard Christian doctrine” that Christ was the only perfect human. My point is that such doctrine is not a standard Christian doctrine, but only appeared in the last 500 years. The standard Christian doctrine, universal for the first millennia and a half, and held by the vast majority of the world’s Christians today, is that Mary was all-holy, and that we too can become holy through cooperation with God.


(George Tichy) #200

Well, so make plans to come to the Spectrum Conference that will take place right here at LA SIERRA UNIVERSITY in September, 14-16: https://spectrummagazine.org/

Spectrum’s 50th Anniversary. This will be BIG! I heard that there will be a big, spicy, and hot Dinner Party right at the beginning, before any speeches are made. You should try, maybe… :roll_eyes::rofl:


(Kade Wilkinson) #201

BLC:

The document you linked to is about the RCC doctrine of the immaculate conception of Mary. I never stated that doctrine was universal for the first 3/4 of the Christian era, and you you look above I actually pointed out to @timteichman that it is a recent innovation.

What I did claim was the universal Christian belief for the first 3/4ths of the Christian era is the belief that Mary was sinless. See here:

Obviously, this is quite different than the doctrine of the immaculate conception.


(Frank Peacham) #202

I just read Moses’ final sermon to Israel in Dt 27-28. It promises blessings if we fully obey, and curses if we disobey. The list of curses are longer than the blessings. I can’t find anything about salvation by faith alone" without works, as Paul taught. Maybe you can show me.


(Frank Peacham) #203

I enjoy selected Netflix movies, even if they are fiction. I believe that EGW does not have absolute perfect inspiration. If put to the test, nearly all SDA’s would agree. They would be unwilling to accept her standards as the will of God.