End-Time Events and the Last Generation: An Interview with Dr. George Knight


(George Tichy) #244

I am here reading your post, Kevin, and wondering, “Were did Kevin get the right to talk to others (Frank in this case) like that?” Honestly, I am puzzled with this kind of authoritarian, arrogant, saucy, and presumptuous reprimands you are able to throw on people who think different than you.

Keep doing it Kevin. I will just shake my head, and will keep wondering about your “spiritual authority to crush those who you disagree with.” Geeesh… :nauseated_face:


(Cfowler) #245

It’s strange that KP doesn’t see/hear how arrogant this is.

I know that I have written things that weren’t done in the best way, but I do see the error of my ways, so to speak, and try to be more aware of how I say things.

KP seems perfectly oblivious and perfectly okay (emphasis on perfect ly :wink:) with speaking to people in such a way.


(Tim Teichman) #246

When you’re right you’re right. The bible tells him so. Being right and informing others of what is right to save their souls (since even sincere wrong belief will land you in hell) is the most important thing, feelings of others be damned.


(George Tichy) #247

But I have no doubt that we all know it’s just mere perfect imperfection, aka fake perfection, right?
My main point is that it’s arrogant and presumptuous to tell other people just “You are very wrong again.” Who does he think he is, to say this to people he never met? And under what authority does he make such a JUDGMENT?
If he only presented his ideas/opinions/beliefs/thoughts and let people just to “consider” them… But he can’t do that!!!


(Frank Peacham) #248

I speak in general terms. Jesus, John the Baptist and the disciples lived a life of what we would call poverty. Many Monks in the Early and MIddle ages took seriously the lessons of Jesus on wealth.

Andrews Professors earn a medium salary range. One pastor, from Nebraska, told me that he believed that his salary was larger than all his church members. Doctors, medical workers and Administrators in in Pacific press and Adventist health system, earn triple digit income. They don’t follow the denominational wage standard, because they can.

“But in time a change came. The spirit of sacrifice was not so manifest. In some of our institutions the wages of a few workers was increased beyond reason. Those who received these wages claimed that they deserved a greater sum than others, because of their superior talents. But who gave them their talents, their ability? With the increase of wages came a steady increase of covetousness, which is idolatry, and a steady decline of spirituality. Gross evils crept in, and God was dishonored.” EGW


(Kade Wilkinson) #249

Many monks still do.


(Frank Peacham) #250

I don’t see it has that way. Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. In essence have a new beginning, a new start, all the old must pass away. It was the very poverty of Jesus that kept many of the educated, powerful and influential man from acknowledging Jesus. Only the poorest person in the Israel was chosen to be his forerunner. None of his disciples were enriched by following Jesus. They took seriously “blessed are the poor,”

The lessons of Jesus are all to plain. Just remember the story of the rich man and Lazarus?


(Frank Peacham) #251

Many a real-true Christian will not seek revenge, as you say. Many will give their coat and hat also, not asking for it again. These are internal qualities, not part of our 28 beliefs. As I see it, we don’t teach these teachings of Jesus very often. We never require them with the vigor we do Sabbath Keeping or believing in EGW. This is sad!


(milton hook) #252

Wow, what a clear statement of perfectionism from drich. And done so unashamedly!!


(Kevin H) #253

I’m sorry but the above “information” has been out of date for about 30 years. Scholars have been comparing Paul with other rabbis of his time and his views are not nearly as radical as we use to think.

Some of what was thought to be shocking changes in Paul was not changes from Judaism as such, but that Saul belonged to the Synagogue of the freedman, which was a far right wing hate group, who wanted to show that they were more Jewish than the other Jews, and called their additional deeds “the works of the law”. Much of what we thought was Paul being critical about the Torah and Judaism we now know changes from his far right wing extremism to more main line rabbinical view.

The issue as I have mentioned above but which seems to go in one eye and out the other without making contact with the organ called the mind in a number of the readers here is that we live in a culture where we read the words of Paul but miss his ideas as we are naturally reading into his words NOT PAUL’S ideas but the ideas of the church-synagogue split of 135 AD, St. Augustine, and the events of the 1500s. The information that Frankpeachamvt shares is an example that what the scholars are now saying is correct.

What is sad is that both Paul and Mrs. White have had so many of other people’s ideas read into their writings that their messages have both been lost and have to be carefully researched to learn what they were trying to say.


#254

Carol, that’s because you’re a truth seeker and intellectually honest. Those are not independently exclusive traits but are necessary to test that which is otherwise tradition and is not inherently an Adventist trait.


(milton hook) #255

I’m wondering, Kevin, about the “objective witnesses to this conversation” who you feel agree with you.
I don’t see many LIKES at the end of your posts. I think the fantasy that scores of readers agree with you is all part of a delusional mindset.
I find it encouraging that most “objective witnesses” apparently don’t agree with your interpretations and endless defining of terms to wriggle out of corners.


(milton hook) #256

I return to George Knight’s interview. He said “He (Christ) wants to develop His loving character in each of His followers.”
Christ’s loving character is perfect, is it not?
If that perfect character is developed in us would we not be perfect?
The typical answer is,“It may not be perfect in us but you need to be in the process of development towards perfection.”
My question is, "How much development is acceptable to God? At what stage are we acceptable?
The typical answer is, “You have to attempt to be as loving as Christ.”
My further question is, "How hard do you have to try before it’s acceptable to God? And how do you know if you are trying hard enough?
To my mind Knight hasn’t quite rid himself of some SDA platitudes. He says he has given up perfectionism but he still uses the common phrases used by perfectionists. There is some fuzzy thinking there. His explanations don’t clearly say that Christ’s loving character is imputed to us. He would, I think, agree with imputation but he wants to add impartation and a developmental process as well. It’s very Roman Catholic/Wesleyan.
A word study of qadesh would be a good idea, starting with Gen.2;3. Qadesh is a single action declaring something sacred, not a developmental process.


(Frank Peacham) #257

You are no doubt more up-to-date than I am. I know we all have a tendency to read the Bible with a modern western mindset. Perhaps God doesn’t care about the details, but the big picture. Every culture and time period see truth different. It is just the way it is. Thanks for you comments.


(Frankmer7) #258

The idea that Gentiles could be fully accepted into the covenant people simply as Gentiles, without circumcision, and thus not being compelled to take on the entire yoke of the Torah, finds its roots in Paul’s recasting of the mainline covenantal belief and practice of his own day. The requirement and evidence for full belonging was faith in the crucified Christ as Lord, and the God who raised him from the dead. Those who believed received the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit that formed God’s new covenant community of Jew and Gentile, united on an equal basis in his son. This was God’s new creation in the midst of the divided old. The whole idea of identification of the people of God through the Torah was part of the old divided world. Its time was up. Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians 1-2 make this case eloquently.

This was a huge reshaping of Jewish covenantal understanding. Israel’s God had indeed fulfilled his covenant promises, but it was not through Israel’s successful keeping of the Torah. It was through the faithfulness of her Messiah, through whom God would restore humanity and his entire creation. While Paul’s thought was derived from the Jewish categories of his day, its substance was radically reworked in Jesus and the Spirit. No rabbi of Paul’s day was teaching this. Why would he have engendered so much controversy if they were?

This cannot be fobbed off as a second century synagogue/ church split that led to a misreading of Paul’s gospel or intent concerning Jesus, belonging to his people, Israel and the Torah. It was the issue in real time, and Paul was in constant, real time trouble with his countrymen because of it.

Thanks…

Frank


#259

Frank, do you sometimes feel like Paul where you church? It would seem so.


(Frankmer7) #260

Without comparing myself… yes. I’m in trouble even as we speak.

Thanks…

Frank


(dale) #261

I didn’t use if’s to substantiate anything. The if’s are logical reasoning. The substantiation came when I pointed out the sanctuary. Read Leviticus it goes over all the symbols. The bottom line is that if Moses does not teach salvation by faith in Christ (which the sanctuary does by types and symbols) then there must be two ways of salvation. One through Christ and one through works. Either all are saved by grace through faith or there is more than one way to obtain salvation. There can be no sidestepping that issue. When Jesus says I am the way the truth and the life no man gets to the father but by me. He hadn’t died yet. They were still under the sacrificial system. Yet Jesus said in the present tense that he was the only way to God. How can that be unless Christ is the only way to God in both the old and New Testament. He has to be. If salvation through Christ alone isn’t in all the bible then there is a way that man can save himself. Because salvation by works is salvation without Christ and frankly that isn’t possible. The reason why no human in the old or New Testament can’t save themselves is that there is nothing that we can do of ourselves to change us from being a sinner. That is why we need Christ because his death satisfies the claims of the law that condemn us to die. Therefore he covers us with his righteousness and his merit and we can stand before God justified. This is consistent with the sacrificial system. With Abraham, the covenant was given by faith and not works.
Genesis 15:1-6
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 ¶ And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 ¶ And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 ¶ And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Verse 6 said and he believed the lord and he counted it to him for righteousness. Abraham was made righteous by his belief, his faith. God just declared him righteous in verse 6 isn’t that justification? It is.


(dale) #262

The problem is with saying you have do be like Christ. It is impossible for us to be like Christ of ourselves, but what is impossible with man is possible with God. It’s the understanding that it is God who must work the change in us not us doing it by ourselves or attempting to be perfect. Can God perfect his character in a human being? Of course he can. He is omnipotent. The only way God can do his work in us if we live Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by r the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his h good pleasure.

Romans 8:1-14 KJV
[1] … There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [5] For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [6] For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [7] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. [8] So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [9] But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. [10] And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. [12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. …

Now what does the spirit do in us when we walk after the spirit? Galatians 5:22-25 KJV
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, p goodness, faith, q [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. …
Those are all observable actions which are the result of God’s work in us. Key in on the last verse of this scripture that says we are created in Christ unto good works. Who creates the good works in us? It is Christ. So if it is Christ who created the good works in us it is Christ who will create his character in us an who is going to tell God that he CANNOT create his character in man?
Ephesians 2:8-10 KJV
[8] For by grace are g ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: [9] Not of works, lest any man should boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. …


(dale) #263

Is Paul greater than Jesus? Because I hear more about Paul on the teaching of the New Testament than Jesus. If you are citing Paul to contradict jesus there is a problem. Jesus was plain when he said Matthew 5:17-28 KJV
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. [18] For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. [19] Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them , the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20] For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. [21] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: [22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. [23] Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; [24] Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. [25] Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. [26] Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. [27] Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: [28] But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. …
are you saying that Jesus was wrong in upholding these laws? Because now keeping the law is talked about as salvation by works or legalism yet Jesus is expanding the law showing that it even covers your very thoughts. Jesus said that he did not come to destroy the law and the prophets. How can Paul destroy the law and the prophets and be in harmony with Jesus when Jesus is clearly upholding it. Paul is not greater than his master.